The Yard Guys

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Is not a cruising boat, is a hobbie cat on steroids,or a AC45 replica ...

As I said:

"All cruising boat designs are compromises in what regards sailing. Only open racers don't compromise. In what regards compromise, some compromise less, other more, including windage. The compromises in what regards windage are opposed to a better and bigger interior space. There are boats to all the tastes, from the motorsailor Nauticat 33, that has the biggest and more enjoyable space to live aboard that I ever saw on a 33ft monohull, to boats like the new Gunboat that compromises very little regarding performance.

There are designs for all tastes and for all types of sailor's cruising and sailing preferences and what is wrong is to access all the boat's designs by our own preferences."

From the Gunboat site:
"A NEW MULTIPURPOSE COASTAL CRUISER-RACER
LARGE COMFORTABLE COCKPIT & MAIN SALON: Upon return, you will have time to shower, nap, and plan the post-race gathering. Your friends will be drawn to the spacious and comfortable cockpit. The salon offers comfortable seating with ample headroom when seated. The galley island, complete with two burner stove top, 100 litre fridge drawer, and sink, is centrally located to entertain.
CRUISE HOME IN COMFORT & SPEED: The GUNBOAT G4 features two queen berths located outboard in the main salon. With panoramic top-deck views, abundant ventilation, and a generous sense of space, these may be the best berths shy of the GUNBOAT 90. With guests aboard, deploy the dual privacy curtains. Kids will love the single berths in their own private hulls. Everyone will appreciate the enclosed head with standing headroom. At GUNBOAT G4 speeds, covering longer distances in daylight is easy.

DAY-SAILING WITH FRIENDS: The GUNBOAT G4 is simple and easy to sail. At only 2.4 tons, the G4 has light loads. Sails can be hoisted by hand with no need for complex powered equipment. Friends will find their perfect space whether on the helm, on the spacious cockpit seats, or in the protected salon with unobstructed views. Ample storage space in the bows allows for easy access to all your toys. With room for kite boarding, surfing, snorkeling, and SUP gear, you'll be able to keep everyone onboard entertained.
SHOAL DRAFT: When you arrive at your cruising destination, you will feel at ease, knowing that the GUNBOAT G4 draws less than 1'. With rudders, daggerboards, and props all fully retracted, you'll be free to skim over skinny waters and anchor with the bows on the beach."

As their site clearly indicates it is a coastal performance cruiser a dual purpose boat that can be used for racing and for cruising.

I know that you would prefer to coastal cruise on a Nauticat 38 but i can assure you that I would like very much to cruise on that Gunboat and I am quite sure i would not be the only one Regarding the Nauticat, for the money it costs I could find hundreds of boats I would like more to coastal cruise in...almost any other 38ft. Almost all sail better and most, much better, having an interior that has enough space for my needs.

The real problem with the new Gunboat, even more than with the Sig45, is the price. A boat like that, very light and very strong, all in carbon is going to cost a small fortune...even so I am quite sure that some lucky sailors will have the money to have them.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

As I said:

"All cruising boat designs are compromises in what regards sailing. Only open racers don't compromise. In what regards compromise, some compromise less, other more, including windage. The compromises in what regards windage are opposed to a better and bigger interior space. There are boats to all the tastes, from the motorsailor Nauticat 33, that has the biggest and more enjoyable space to live aboard that I ever saw on a 33ft monohull, to boats like the new Gunboat that compromises very little regarding performance.

There are designs for all tastes and for all types of sailor's cruising and sailing preferences and what is wrong is to access all the boat's designs by our own preferences."

From the Gunboat site:
"A NEW MULTIPURPOSE COASTAL CRUISER-RACER
LARGE COMFORTABLE COCKPIT & MAIN SALON: Upon return, you will have time to shower, nap, and plan the post-race gathering. Your friends will be drawn to the spacious and comfortable cockpit. The salon offers comfortable seating with ample headroom when seated. The galley island, complete with two burner stove top, 100 litre fridge drawer, and sink, is centrally located to entertain.
CRUISE HOME IN COMFORT & SPEED: The GUNBOAT G4 features two queen berths located outboard in the main salon. With panoramic top-deck views, abundant ventilation, and a generous sense of space, these may be the best berths shy of the GUNBOAT 90. With guests aboard, deploy the dual privacy curtains. Kids will love the single berths in their own private hulls. Everyone will appreciate the enclosed head with standing headroom. At GUNBOAT G4 speeds, covering longer distances in daylight is easy.

DAY-SAILING WITH FRIENDS: The GUNBOAT G4 is simple and easy to sail. At only 2.4 tons, the G4 has light loads. Sails can be hoisted by hand with no need for complex powered equipment. Friends will find their perfect space whether on the helm, on the spacious cockpit seats, or in the protected salon with unobstructed views. Ample storage space in the bows allows for easy access to all your toys. With room for kite boarding, surfing, snorkeling, and SUP gear, you'll be able to keep everyone onboard entertained.
SHOAL DRAFT: When you arrive at your cruising destination, you will feel at ease, knowing that the GUNBOAT G4 draws less than 1'. With rudders, daggerboards, and props all fully retracted, you'll be free to skim over skinny waters and anchor with the bows on the beach."

As their site clearly indicates it is a coastal performance cruiser a dual purpose boat that can be used for racing and for cruising.

I know that you would prefer to coastal cruise on a Nauticat 38 but i can assure you that I would like very much to cruise on that Gunboat and I am quite sure i would not be the only one Regarding the Nauticat, for the money it costs I could find hundreds of boats I would like more to coastal cruise in...almost any other 38ft. Almost all sail better and most, much better, having an interior that has enough space for my needs.

The real problem with the new Gunboat, even more than with the Sig45, is the price. A boat like that, very light and very strong, all in carbon is going to cost a small fortune...even so I am quite sure that some lucky sailors will have the money to have them.

Keep dreaming Paulo with those long posts, its a coastal thing no matter how you want it to paint it,,, COASTAL.....

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Keep dreaming Paulo with those long posts, its a coastal thing no matter how you want it to paint it,,, COASTAL.....

What does "coastal" imply versus "blue water"? Apart from tankage, etc (things geared toward duration of the voyage) - how exactly does the design and build of a "coastal" boat make it "less of a boat" than a "blue water" boat? And if it is actually "less of a boat" - specifically in what areas?

I think that would be an interesting discussion.

The thing to keep in mind is that, in reality, coastal sailing is generally far riskier than bluewater sailing.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

What does "coastal" imply versus "blue water"? Apart from tankage, etc (things geared toward duration of the voyage) - how exactly does the design and build of a "coastal" boat make it "less of a boat" than a "blue water" boat? And if it is actually "less of a boat" - specifically in what areas?

I think that would be an interesting discussion.

The thing to keep in mind is that, in reality, coastal sailing is generally far riskier than bluewater sailing.

Lol!! im surprised you ask it, is a genuine question or just a tricky question? i think you know the answer really well..

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Lol!! im surprised you ask it, is a genuine question or just a tricky question? i think you know the answer really well..

No, I'm serious. Apart from a huge breaking wave slamming into a boat (which is going to be pretty catastrophic regardless of brand) - most of the problems that will cause actual structural damage to boats occur nearer to shore - not in blue water.

For example, where do you get shorter, steeper waves that can beat a boat to death (apart from the Gulf Stream, etc. in certain conditions)? Where are you most likely to encounter stuff you'll collide with? Where are you most likely to encounter really dangerous conditions like a "rage"? Where are you most likely to hit a rock with your keel/rudder (ask Team Vestas)?

There's a common notion that if a storm is imminent, it's much better to head out to sea than head toward the coast. Why? Because it's safer.

My point is, I think this is yet another area where the "bluewater debate" is very weak. Considering all of the above, if a boat is TRULY DESIGNED to be a coastal boat - it's going to be MUCH more of a tank than ANY bluewater boat out here. Bar none.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i sooo love my deep full keeled heavy crab crushing antique politically incorrect go anywhere except florida and bahamas fat bottomed leaky teaky keel stepped masted boat with its heart shaped transom
....

That is what is all about: Having a boat we can afford and that we love. It seems you are a lucky girl

How are the works? You are finally enjoying good live and fare niente? except sailing I mean

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Keep dreaming Paulo with those long posts, its a coastal thing no matter how you want it to paint it,,, COASTAL.....

Who have said otherwise? They say it is a coastal boat as they say that the Nauticat the 38 is a coastal motorsailer.

Most of us don't want to cross oceans on a boat. My wife says that just the idea is terribly boring. Most will not cross any ocean anyway but want to have a "bluewater " boat, most of the times an antique that was a bluewater boat when it was not old and tired. Its like having an old race worse and pretend that it can still win races That gives some sort of status.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

....
My point is, I think this is yet another area where the "bluewater debate" is very weak. Considering all of the above, if a boat is TRULY DESIGNED to be a coastal boat - it's going to be MUCH more of a tank than ANY bluewater boat out here. Bar none.

Yes, you want it to escalate fast

There are many types of coastal boats. In what regards licences to sail them here the legislation is very precise: (translating the names)

Sailor's licence:
Limitation: 3 miles from shore and 6 miles from an harbour; 14 to 18 years: boat until 5m, power installed until 22.5kw (30hp);
More than 16 years: jet ski, free power limit;
More than 18 years: boats until 7 m , power installed up to 45kw (60hp);" meaning you can run away quickly to an harbour if bad weather strickes.

Local Master's licence:
Limitation: boats up to 24 mts, navigation up to 5 miles from shore and 10 miles from an harbour; Daily or nocturn navigation; No limit of installed power.
You still can run for harbor if you find bad weather.

Coatal Master's Licence
Limitation: boats up to 24 mts, navigation up to 25 miles from shore.
Ok, 25 miles can be a lot more than 25NM from a shelter but even so in 24 hours maximum you will find a shelter.

For more than that you need an Offshore Master's licence and a Class A boat. That is something that is not very well understood, is that the boat certification on almost all EC countries is linked to the licence system.

For sailing on the med, the way I do with 3 or 4 days passage being at more than 150nm of any coast I need an offshore licence and a A class boat, the same requirements I need for crossing the Atlantic. The only difference in what is required regarding boat equipment is a sextant and a Navtex.

On an Ocean crossing you pass more time without being able to return to a safe port and with a bigger variability in what regards weather reports due to the time you take to cross, but also more stable weather patterns. On places like the med you are never more far away then some 3 or 4 days (if the weather permits) from a safe port but the weather instability is much bigger and the ability to preview the weather in some days much lower. I know of boats that have faced storms in the med for many days before being abandoned.

All this is one of the reason Class A boat changed its definition, being now only one based on weather and sea conditions. I had already heard a two times circumnavigator saying that the worse conditions he had sailed on was on the Med.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Polux

Who have said otherwise? They say it is a coastal boat as they say that the Nauticat the 38 is a coastal motorsailer.

Most of us don't want to cross oceans on a boat. My wife says that just the idea is terribly boring. Most will not cross any ocean anyway but want to have a "bluewater " boat, most of the times an antique that was a bluewater boat when it was not old and tired. Its like having an old race worse and pretend that it can still win races That gives some sort of status.

No, it's like having an older but initially well built and very comfortable and safe car made with quality parts by proud craftsmen rather than a newish, more shiny tin box made by uneducated zombies out of questionable materials in some 3rd world hell hole and which will fall apart way before the older one will require a major fix.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

No, I'm serious. Apart from a huge breaking wave slamming into a boat (which is going to be pretty catastrophic regardless of brand) - most of the problems that will cause actual structural damage to boats occur nearer to shore - not in blue water.

Surely you don't think the measuring stick for "blue water" is what kind of a short term beating it can take? That's a part of it but not all. Long passages (e.g. 15-25 days) require many things different than a coastal boat. Rigging and hardware stores are not just a few hours away. The amount of headroom in the design parameters has to be more for a voyaging boat. Big ocean waves can be a lot more damaging that short near shore waves. For one thing they can last a lot longer. Many long days at sea where the boat is constantly accelerated and decelerated wears on engine beds, chainplates, rigging, etc. Coastal boats see short term events that last a few minutes to an hour or two. Long duration voyages require a much different philosophy.

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

For example, where do you get shorter, steeper waves that can beat a boat to death (apart from the Gulf Stream, etc. in certain conditions)? Where are you most likely to encounter stuff you'll collide with? Where are you most likely to encounter really dangerous conditions like a "rage"? Where are you most likely to hit a rock with your keel/rudder (ask Team Vestas)?

These are examples of avoidable situations but Team Vestas was on a long passage. So a passage maker has to handle many days at sea and coastal conditions and everything in between. When you are on a passage and conditions are not to your liking you can't sail an hour away and get away from it as a coastal sailor can.

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

There's a common notion that if a storm is imminent, it's much better to head out to sea than head toward the coast. Why? Because it's safer.

This notion is wrong. If it were so the insurance companies would give discounts for sailors that are willing to head out to sea when a named storm approaches. You must realize how silly that sounds because it is silly.

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

My point is, I think this is yet another area where the "bluewater debate" is very weak. Considering all of the above, if a boat is TRULY DESIGNED to be a coastal boat - it's going to be MUCH more of a tank than ANY bluewater boat out here. Bar none.

I'm sorry, but this so defies all logic that I'm not sure what to say.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Keep dreaming Paulo with those long posts, its a coastal thing no matter how you want it to paint it,,, COASTAL.....

Yes coastal. But thats pretty much european sailing. Down the coast to the med.

Be hell in the tropics. No shade from sun or weather protection in a gale.

Good fast sailor though.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Who have said otherwise? They say it is a coastal boat as they say that the Nauticat the 38 is a coastal motorsailer.

Most of us don't want to cross oceans on a boat. My wife says that just the idea is terribly boring. Most will not cross any ocean anyway but want to have a "bluewater " boat, most of the times an antique that was a bluewater boat when it was not old and tired. Its like having an old race worse and pretend that it can still win races That gives some sort of status.

Well mate, you know the diference between your Comet and a bene or jeaneau docked together at first sight, no diference... all the PWB Euro style box hulls looks the same to me, pretending to have some status , hahahh... you funy...


The Nauticat 38 is not a coastal boat, is the friking EU ISO CIRCUS RATED who say that,, not Nauticat not even the designer...

I think you are matched with Smack in terms of croosing oceans experience, go ahead and do a ARC, Smack next year is doing the NARC, LolOlO,,,,, you guys can meet together at some point in the carib and Exchange ideas and opinions,,,

The point is Paulo, sailing in a bullet with your Pal¡¡ is not the same as cruising the oceans with kids and family and lots of gear,,, since all boats are compromises, you need to weight your preferences.....

[downunder]

Shade and weather protection and a lesser provisioning are part of why the Sig 45 is a coastal cruiser. improving those aspects cost weight and speed compromises not in the description of the vessel.

With its designers i have no issue with its seaworthiness and construction.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by downunder

Yes coastal. But thats pretty much european sailing. Down the coast to the med.

Be hell in the tropics. No shade from sun or weather protection in a gale.

Good fast sailor though.

it would be very funy to see the G4 doing the Bahamas with the foils down, then the term sailing around reefs could be the new flying on top of the reefs....

[neilpride]

Transmitterdan hit the nail, but im going to add to the shipping trafic , the lee shores, the harbours, bars, shoals etc.. who make the coastal thing sometimes dangerous, is not just short step seas...