The Yard Guys

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by avb3

But you notice, it's an OLD Bene.

He must be a yard guy.

Heh-heh. Touché.

And it's got a 69 PHRF. That would make us look like a freakin' Herreshoff!

[neilpride]

Its a German Frers design, i read somewhere that this boat underwater profile make the boat faster when the boat heel, no idea...This one have a really thick hull compared with today standars , and the partial liner is Fg, just saying..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Its a German Frers design, i read somewhere that this boat underwater profile make the boat faster when the boat heel, no idea...This one have a really thick hull compared with today standars , and the partial liner is Fg, just saying..

The boat is probably faster heeled over because of the overhangs. The waterline length is thus increased when she heels. That and the thick hull make it sound more like a . . . errrr . . . traditional bluewater boat??

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yeah, i dont have to much time to investigate in the 456 but my first impresión its really good, i like the 456 ...

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Beneteau started out and built an excellent reputation building stout fishing trawlers. So maybe this is why their early sailboats were also built well. Then they perfected techniques for assembly-line production of hulls which were, in turn, adopted by other companies. This suggests, to me anyway, that the different reputations surrounding the early & later Bene's are based on something rational & objective.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Beneteau started out and built an excellent reputation building stout fishing trawlers. So maybe this is why their early sailboats were also built well. Then they perfected techniques for assembly-line production of hulls which were, in turn, adopted by other companies. This suggests, to me anyway, that the different reputations surrounding the early & later Bene's are based on something rational & objective.

The early First series and Idylle series make popular Beneteau, they make terrible mistakes to like the 1990 390 Oceanis, the Idylle its a tank, solid , and the early First series are build really well in regards hulls and decks , they suffer from blisters from that era and some other problems like any boat from those days, the interior are made for offshore racing and cruising at the same time, good sea berths and acomodations, a really good boat in my opinión.

Yes, they are made diferent in the past, another series from Dufour are the prestige series form the 90`s really good boats to. If you compare the quality from a prestige and a new dufour you can see the diference. They are build better in the past...

[neilpride]

I stolen this pictures from a poster here in cruiser fórum , Highland Fling.,
This is sections of the grid structure after a keel removal in the F456, as you can see the ticknes is masive..Overbuilt...

[avb3]

Cool 1/2 hour video of an old Ericson 32 doing a solo to Hawaii and back. The owner puts on a pretty funny performance at just before the 8 minute mark, but it is worth watching the whole thing.

Singlehanded Cruising on Vimeo

[Neptune's Gear]

Nice video! Tidy little boat.

Sent from my D5503 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Polux

In what regards pleasure crafts having a big surface "window" area is not always a liability, it all depends how it is designed. The use o large panels of methyl methacrylate, popularly named acrylic are not a problem if thick enough and supported internally by a structure. In this case it does not work like a window that is supported by a thin frame but as a transparent wall supported by an interior structural structure.

Regarding windage and energy absorbed and dissipated by the encounter of a breaking wave there is a huge difference between a vertical panel, that will take all the energy, or an inclined panel that will dissipate most of it.

In what regards a good design regarding that and cats, the one that is making an absurdly good passage on the ARC, the Philocat 136 is a great example. Not only dam fast but also designed to be seaworthy and have lots of interior light, without compromising the stability with a huge windage.

You are somewhat out of date with cats.

You might note that apart from Lagoon many of the newer/performance/quality cat designs are built with verticle windows. Enormous advantages in the tropics with heat and airflow. Are you suggesting the designers/manufacturers have got it wrong.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

as you can see the ticknes is masive..Overbuilt...

I know you own a boat with a ridiculously thick hull and thick solid glass deck, but I bet you don't really think thick fiberglass and overbuilt are a good thing. As a multi owner, that picture gives me apoplexy and leaves me shaking my head.

I don't understand why people think 3" thick hulls are good, or why "overbuilt" is good. A composite structure designed and engineered to be only "built", and not "overbuilt" will be much stronger, lighter and safer than simply piling on fiberglass until you feel good. There is not a single advantage or reason for over-thick fiberglass.

Unless one plans to regularly grind away on reefs, of course.

Mark

Mark

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by colemj

I know you own a boat with a ridiculously thick hull and thick solid glass deck, but I bet you don't really think thick fiberglass and overbuilt are a good thing. As a multi owner, that picture gives me apoplexy and leaves me shaking my head.

I don't understand why people think 3" thick hulls are good, or why "overbuilt" is good. A composite structure designed and engineered to be only "built", and not "overbuilt" will be much stronger, lighter and safer than simply piling on fiberglass until you feel good. There is not a single advantage or reason for over-thick fiberglass.

Unless one plans to regularly grind away on reefs, of course.

Mark

Mark

This is exactly right. I don't understand the "overbuilt" mania either. Why do you even want something overbuilt? What that actually shows is guessing in the design and engineering. That's not good.

And what exactly are you overbuilding for? Do you really need 4" of glass layup for what waves and wind are going to dish out? Isn't that what any boat is primarily designed for? Or do really want your boat designed "like a tank" SO you can repeatedly hit stuff like steel trawlers really hard?

Showing thickness/massiveness of a structural member means absolutely nothing...except a lot of labor and materials. What matters is the forces that drive that thickness/massiveness and whether it's really necessary for those forces.

There's a reason we're not still building stone pyramids - thick and massive though they may be.

Yes there is a balance between too lightly built and too heavily built. But that's where good engineering shines. If the only answer you have is to "make it thicker and more massive" - then you're not doing it right.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by avb3

Don't you find it interesting though, that virtually all of the 'yard guys' will pick the older boats over the newer ones. That, BTW, includes my 'yard guys' doing my bottom job, some other maintenance and my rigger, who also happens to be a friend.

I wonder what they know, that some are missing? After all, they see more boats, and their strengths and weaknesses, than most will see in a lifetime during a year's worth of work. I think it is fortunate we have some very credible and experienced 'yard guys on this forum, who have over time brought a wealth of knowledge to us.

Perhaps it is best summed up that here are certain design elements that have been proven and tested over time. Innovations are slow in being accepted, mostly because that test of time can only be accomplished in one way, and the adage of not fixing what ain't broke goes a long way, when safety at sea is considered. All other considerations should be secondary. My emphasis is on should be, as it is clear that the market, although giving lip service to safety, really is interested in other things. Comfort at dock (which is different than comfort at sea), space, openness, speed for some, a 'modern' look etc. etc. Most of those are not safety related, but certainly are related to the eye candy appeal that is so successful in marketing.

It is the difference between left brain and right brain thinking. Who is to say who is right? Many of the traditional builders are defunct, and those that build to the market are, if not thriving, at least viable. That doesn't make their boats better, it just makes their business model more successful.

First of all I would like to say that I appreciate the difference in tone regarding your reply and I will try to correspond. After all we all like boats are here to have fun and exchange informnation and it would be rather boring if all had the same opinion

Yes, I find interesting but easy to understand: While I (without wanted to be a smart ass) know more about boat design than them, appreciate more the advantages of a much better design, they, knowing more about boat building, appreciate more the advantages of a superior building even if I have to say that regarding that they seem to know a lot more about old techniques and old methods than about new ones. Note that They are only doing that in what regards preferring old high quality boats to inexpensive modern mass production boats, not regarding old high quality boats versus new high quality boats, meaning all very expensive boats.

Regarding boat design and proven qualities regarding safety and all that may I point to you that on brands with a great tradition of seaworthiness the evolution of the hulls was basically on the same direction Beneteau had followed with theirs?

Look at the hull of the Bristol 47.7 and the one of an Amel of the same vintage. Look at the hull of a modern Amel and to the one of the Beneteau 48...and Amel is known to be a very conservative brand in what regards hull evolution. Have a look at what is going to be one of the best bluewater boats ever, the new X6, a boat not maximized for downwind sailing as it is the Beneteau.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by downunder

You are somewhat out of date with cats.

You might note that apart from Lagoon many of the newer/performance/quality cat designs are built with verticle windows. Enormous advantages in the tropics with heat and airflow. Are you suggesting the designers/manufacturers have got it wrong.

Why do you say that? One thing is practical needs, regarding space, easiness of build and interior high, other is what works better regarding less windage and the dissipation of energy when a breaking wave hits the superstructure. Regarding that a hull like the one of the Philocat is evidently better, it has nothing to do with being out of date. All boats are a compromise, Lagoons compromise much more regarding windage, versus interior space and living convenience than Outemer and that Philocat compromises even less in what regards Outremer.

Probably it is because it is a cat that compromises little regarding sail efficiency and safety that on the ARC is blowing away all much bigger Outremer. Outdated?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by colemj

I know you own a boat with a ridiculously thick hull and thick solid glass deck, but I bet you don't really think thick fiberglass and overbuilt are a good thing. As a multi owner, that picture gives me apoplexy and leaves me shaking my head.

I don't understand why people think 3" thick hulls are good, or why "overbuilt" is good. A composite structure designed and engineered to be only "built", and not "overbuilt" will be much stronger, lighter and safer than simply piling on fiberglass until you feel good. There is not a single advantage or reason for over-thick fiberglass.

Unless one plans to regularly grind away on reefs, of course.

Mark

Mark

Sure, why not, the pictures refer to sections of the grid liner, as far i know the F456 is a old boat and in those years dont have the right stuff as today, i dont see any problem with a ridiculous thick fiberglass grid liner, just the oposite , a strong structure,,
Maybe you can say here how are laminated or how thick are the grid liners today? nevermind, even whit a ridiculous thick grid sections the boat dont suffer in perfomance, so i dont see any negative impact to build those structures overkill,, You as a multi owner understand really well that a multi is complety diferent in construction compared to a mono, thats why you have aplopexy...

And i never think or say a 3 inches thick hull is good or overkill.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This is exactly right. I don't understand the "overbuilt" mania either. Why do you even want something overbuilt? What that actually shows is guessing in the design and engineering. That's not good.

And what exactly are you overbuilding for? Do you really need 4" of glass layup for what waves and wind are going to dish out? Isn't that what any boat is primarily designed for? Or do really want your boat designed "like a tank" SO you can repeatedly hit stuff like steel trawlers really hard?

Showing thickness/massiveness of a structural member means absolutely nothing...except a lot of labor and materials. What matters is the forces that drive that thickness/massiveness and whether it's really necessary for those forces.

There's a reason we're not still building stone pyramids - thick and massive though they may be.

Yes there is a balance between too lightly built and too heavily built. But that's where good engineering shines. If the only answer you have is to "make it thicker and more massive" - then you're not doing it right.

I think you are pointing to Cheeki Rafiki the first 40.7 , right?