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Old 22-11-2014, 19:59   #121
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And, remember, in their blog post they mysteriously left out the part about striking a rock prior to all this. Maybe they're saving that for the book?

Rudders act like a fuse, even the rudder stock in the bene is Fg, sounds silly to claim that the structure is damaged before due a grounding... its a 5 ft fiberglass blade , it should break before any damage take place inside in the rudder post, the rudder post need to have a safety margin greater than the rudder, what you say sounds like hey dude, dont run aground with the bene because keel and rudder desintegrate....
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:01   #122
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I think you should recognize that it takes very few incidents to cause a signficant recall by automobile manufacturers.

From the NHTSA website:

How many reports must be filed before NHTSA investigates an issue?

There is no established number. Agency technical experts review each and every call, letter, and online report of an alleged safety problem filed with NHTSA. Although NHTSA has no jurisdiction over defects that are not safety-related, it does review each report that suggests a potential safety defect involving groups of motor vehicles or vehicle equipment.


I would think if there are any number of safety issues that our community becomes aware of, it is an issue. Remember, air line safety came about by EACH accident being investigated, and the issue addressed. Why should expect anything less from our sailboat manufacturers? There is no reason to brush any incident of a potential hazard under the table.
I'm not brushing anything under the table. I'm here talking about it and presenting "facts" (previous posts, etc.) aren't I? That's hardly squelching an issue.

But nor am I ready to get behind a freakin' recall on the basis of a few forum posts. Neil himself says he doesn't really know what caused that failure of the Bene's bulkhead bond in his photos - and he was the one that was there digging through it all.

Then the Blue Pearl blog post fails to mention what they talked about here on CF - a rock strike with the rudder! They posted that in June. And in all that time, there has been one single comment on the Cyclades.

So, the "facts" are murky at best.

Now, does this mean there is no problem? Of course not. There very well could be. And if indeed there was a technical advice bulletin to Moorings as Andy E. said, that would certainly be helpful in showing that there was an issue with this particular model of boats. And, it would therefore suggest that any other boat with similar build would come into question.

But to go from there to an NTSB investigation and NHTSA recall is hysterical. Period. Almost as hysterical as taking this smal sample of failures and saying all standard production boats are inferior and dangerous. But, of course, that hasn't stopped anyone.

So keep at it. I enjoy the show.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:04   #123
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I want to see the bulletin from moorings!!!!
Are you kidding me. If there ever was one the shredders have taken care of it long before now.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:09   #124
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Rudders act like a fuse, even the rudder stock in the bene is Fg, sounds silly to claim that the structure is damaged before due a grounding... its a 5 ft fiberglass blade , it should break before any damage take place inside in the rudder post, the rudder post need to have a safety margin greater than the rudder, what you say sounds like hey dude, dont run aground with the bene because keel and rudder desintegrate....
Okay. I assume you have calculations to back that up? If you are trying to tell me that you, a professional, would actually tell a customer who hit a rock with their rudder that they don't need to worry about anything other than the rudder and post - well, I'll take my professional advice elsewhere. For sure.

In any case, why leave the rock strike out of the blog account when they mentioned it here? Sorry, fuse or no fuse, it's important information since the failure was in the rudder assembly.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:09   #125
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Re: The Yard Guys

My god, who sounds hysterical now? and who say all the production boats have the same rudder stock setup? i never see any report from rudder or keel problems in a beneteau idylle for example... The point is Smack , if you own a Oceanis 50 or a 473 or a first 40,7, you should keep in mind that there is previous isues with this boats, warning owners or future buyers i think its a fair play, or we should play like Beneteau or other brands and shut up like nothing happen???
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:17   #126
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Are you kidding me. If there ever was one the shredders have taken care of it long before now.

Yeah very true, something like HTTP 500 Error this page cannot be displayed...
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:23   #127
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Re: The Yard Guys

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My god, who sounds hysterical now? and who say all the production boats have the same rudder stock setup? i never see any report from rudder or keel problems in a beneteau idylle for example... The point is Smack , if you own a Oceanis 50 or a 473 or a first 40,7, you should keep in mind that there is previous isues with this boats, warning owners or future buyers i think its a fair play, or we should play like Beneteau or other brands and shut up like nothing happen???
Of course not! Present the evidence! Keep it coming! Just don't be hysterical about judgements against the whole brand - or, worse, all production boats - unless you have more evidence than what's been shown thus far.

For me personally if I owned a First 40.7 - I would be all over Beneteau based on what I saw with Cheeki Rafiki (and Barracuda). Losing a rudder is one thing - losing a keel is completely another.

BUT I personally don't give the Blue Pearl incident the same weight...purely because of all the mitigating circumstances already listed prior to the sinking.

Yes, it's possible that CR also grounded, etc. But I don't think that's at all known. Even so, I'd be a bit nervous.

Finally, if the 473 is the one with the failed bond at the bulkhead there is so little known about how that happened that until I see more of the same, I'm dubious that it's a widespread problem.

So, like I said, keep it coming. That's what this thread is for. You yard guys are on the front lines - so show us what's going on. Then we can reach our own conclusions.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:34   #128
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Of course not! Present the evidence! Keep it coming! Just don't be hysterical about judgements against the whole brand - or, worse, all production boats - unless you have more evidence than what's been shown thus far.

For me personally if I owned a First 40.7 - I would be all over Beneteau based on what I saw with Cheeki Rafiki (and Barracuda). Losing a rudder is one thing - losing a keel is completely another.

BUT I personally don't give the Blue Pearl incident the same weight...purely because of all the mitigating circumstances already listed prior to the sinking.

Yes, it's possible that CR also grounded, etc. But I don't think that's at all known. Even so, I'd be a bit nervous.

Finally, if the 473 is the one with the failed bond at the bulkhead there is so little known about how that happened that until I see more of the same, I'm dubious that it's a widespread problem.

So, like I said, keep it coming. That's what this thread is for. You yard guys are on the front lines - so show us what's going on. Then we can reach our own conclusions.
You have in the net enough and enough evidences about rudder stock problems in the bene, im not going to do the job for you, if you are so interested in see evidences i suggest you google search and good luck, enjoy the readings.... stubborn!!!!
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:36   #129
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Re: The Yard Guys

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You have in the net enough and enough evidences about rudder stock problems in the bene, im not going to do the job for you, if you are so interested in see evidences i suggest you google search and good luck, enjoy the readings.... stubborn!!!!
Oh I don't mind:

Let me google that for you

I see your images.



[Wait - I thought they were your images. But this was pulled from a thread on SN in 2008. What gives? Are you "negrini" on SN?]

And this one was interesting:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...irst-47-7-2001

Quote:
If you are interested in rudder failures that lead to sinking I suggest you read the Irish MCIB report on the sinking of a Hanse 371.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:37   #130
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Since a rudder discussion began this, here's some pics of last weeks Pacific Seacraft rudder after grinding off all coatings. Typical owner repairs, the list of problems was long, including severe saturation. Sent in for factory rebuild, it's the cheapest option for the client. I see rudders like this and worse all the time.
Just out of curiosity, what model of pacific seacraft is this? Did not know they made a model without a skeg.
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:37   #131
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Okay. I assume you have calculations to back that up? If you are trying to tell me that you, a professional, would actually tell a customer who hit a rock with their rudder that they don't need to worry about anything other than the rudder and post - well, I'll take my professional advice elsewhere. For sure.
What I understood NP to say was that a properly engineered rudder assembly should allow the rudder to break off before the post, thereby preventing putting a big hole in the boat and causing it so sink, i.e. exactly what apparently happened to the Bene at issue here. Doesn't mean that the post & other components may not also be damaged, just that it shouldn't tear out the post. Can't imagine any experienced tech telling a customer not to look for damage to related components. Don't see where you got that one from.

Yes, they probably should have mentioned hitting the rock. But boats do that sorta thing from time to time. They also hit sand bars, coral heads, docks, other boats, and more rocks. Remember how hard Dockhead's boat hit?

Btw, this is the second Bene recently discussed who's rudder hit a rock. Do the rudders on the models in question sit lower in the water than the keel?
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Old 22-11-2014, 20:55   #132
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Re: The Yard Guys

So finally you found something, are you focus zoom in in that top part of the rudder stock without nothing around to hold the stock to the structure?
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Old 22-11-2014, 21:01   #133
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Re: The Yard Guys

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So finally you found something, are you focus zoom in in that top part of the rudder stock without nothing around to hold the stock to the structure?
Are you Negrini?
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Old 22-11-2014, 21:03   #134
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Re: The Yard Guys

No, who is negrini?
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Old 22-11-2014, 21:06   #135
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Re: The Yard Guys

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No, who is negrini?
The guy who posted these same photos on Sailnet in 2008 (link above). I thought they were yours from a boat you'd worked on recently. Didn't you post a couple of these here in the Rudders thread?
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