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Old 16-12-2014, 13:59   #961
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Nobody has dismissed it. They are trying to get you to understand that you do not understand how to apply it. This formula just breaks down when comparing boats of much different designs and sizes. It is a screening tool only for very similar size and designs of boats (which made sense back in the glory days of the CCA).

Again, run a mulithull's numbers through it and make judgements.

Mark
It is not intended for use on multihulls, your right.

Let's face it, when sailors look at buying a boat, very few will compare a 30-35 footer to a 40-45 footer. Completely different markets. The 'blue water' boats that are well regarded are well regarded for a reason... multiple examples of 'been there done it in spades".

Of the newer production boats, many are designed for a market, as opposed to a purpose. Nothing wrong with that, but a buyer needs to be cognizant that it is a reality. No manufacturer tries to design an unsafe boat, however, which boats are built with higher than required standards? Do the production builders build scantlings just enough to meet a standard, or do they build them so that they are substantial and overbuilt? That was one of the criticisms of the European report discussed earlier. What about other parts of the boat? Only to standard, or robust and overbuilt?

Certain production builders have a lessor reputation for a reason. Certain production boats have a great reputation for a reason. I'm probably as frugal as a person as you would know, but there are certain things one doesn't scrimp on for quality and safety. Ask your self, Ikea furniture or Amish built?

When I was at the last Miami boat show earlier this year, I looked at the details (as much as one can) of many of the models, including some higher end ones. If you haven't done so, go to a major boat show and see what appears to be a decline in quality. Sure, things look wonderful from the outside, nice and shiny and new, but look beyond the things that might attract most wifes' (not all, most).

Notice how shallow many bilges are? Notice the pressboard furniture (THAT is a sin in a marine environment). Notice the lack of robustness on things like winches? Notice the difficulty at accessing many areas of the boat to repair or maintain things that will breakdown? Notice how difficult it is in many cases to add functionality without major surgery? What about real storage space? Tankage? A lot of things have to be constrained when maximizing interior space. Take a serious look next time if you get a chance.

And that is a large reason why many prefer older boats, even if it costs money to upgrade them. The old saying of buying something with "good bones" is a truism many agree with.

Although many like the looks and performance of many newer boats, how many can actually say that they are built better now than when manufacturers were not aware of how little they could get away with? Don't get me wrong, there have been improvement that fight things like osmosis, but that is only one issue, often not structural, but cosmetic.

The major production builders have done well in a couple of areas. The French seem to own on the charter market in mono boats. American builders seem to have mostly concentrated on the coastal and to some extent, Caribbean personal use market. Swedish builders still appear to be focussing on more ocean passage making boats.

And then there are the higher end builders who are much more of a custom builder than the production manufacturers could be.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:05   #962
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It is not intended for use on multihulls, your right.

Let's face it, when sailors look at buying a boat, very few will compare a 30-35 footer to a 40-45 footer. Completely different markets. The 'blue water' boats that are well regarded are well regarded for a reason... multiple examples of 'been there done it in spades".

Of the newer production boats, many are designed for a market, as opposed to a purpose. Nothing wrong with that, but a buyer needs to be cognizant that it is a reality. No manufacturer tries to design an unsafe boat, however, which boats are built with higher than required standards? Do the production builders build scantlings just enough to meet a standard, or do they build them so that they are substantial and overbuilt? That was one of the criticisms of the European report discussed earlier. What about other parts of the boat? Only to standard, or robust and overbuilt?

Certain production builders have a lessor reputation for a reason. Certain production boats have a great reputation for a reason. I'm probably as frugal as a person as you would know, but there are certain things one doesn't scrimp on for quality and safety. Ask your self, Ikea furniture or Amish built?

When I was at the last Miami boat show earlier this year, I looked at the details (as much as one can) of many of the models, including some higher end ones. If you haven't done so, go to a major boat show and see what appears to be a decline in quality. Sure, things look wonderful from the outside, nice and shiny and new, but look beyond the things that might attract most wifes' (not all, most).

Notice how shallow many bilges are? Notice the pressboard furniture (THAT is a sin in a marine environment). Notice the lack of robustness on things like winches? Notice the difficulty at accessing many areas of the boat to repair or maintain things that will breakdown? Notice how difficult it is in many cases to add functionality without major surgery? What about real storage space? Tankage? A lot of things have to be constrained when maximizing interior space. Take a serious look next time if you get a chance.

And that is a large reason why many prefer older boats, even if it costs money to upgrade them. The old saying of buying something with "good bones" is a truism many agree with.

Although many like the looks and performance of many newer boats, how many can actually say that they are built better now than when manufacturers were not aware of how little they could get away with? Don't get me wrong, there have been improvement that fight things like osmosis, but that is only one issue, often not structural, but cosmetic.

The major production builders have done well in a couple of areas. The French seem to own on the charter market in mono boats. American builders seem to have mostly concentrated on the coastal and to some extent, Caribbean personal use market. Swedish builders still appear to be focussing on more ocean passage making boats.

And then there are the higher end builders who are much more of a custom builder than the production manufacturers could be.
Those sure are a lot of words having nothing to do with the point I was making or that you were responding to.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to say "I guess I don't understand how to apply those capsize and comfort numbers, and they aren't very relevant anyhow"?

Mark
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:08   #963
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Those sure are a lot of words having nothing to do with the point I was making or that you were responding to.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to say "I guess I don't understand how to apply those capsize and comfort numbers, and they aren't very relevant anyhow"?

Mark
Did you read them? Sorry you can't see the connection.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:13   #964
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Re: The Yard Guys

Furniture, tankage, storage, access, scantlings, bilge depth, a general rant on what you personally think makes a good boat, a broad brush painting of any boat not of your criteria as bad, massive generalizations in whole, etc.

Which part related to your understanding of applying capsize ratio and motion comfort numbers did I miss?

Mark
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:23   #965
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Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It is not intended for use on multihulls, your right.

Let's face it, when sailors look at buying a boat, very few will compare a 30-35 footer to a 40-45 footer. Completely different markets. The 'blue water' boats that are well regarded are well regarded for a reason... multiple examples of 'been there done it in spades".

Of the newer production boats, many are designed for a market, as opposed to a purpose. Nothing wrong with that, but a buyer needs to be cognizant that it is a reality. No manufacturer tries to design an unsafe boat, however, which boats are built with higher than required standards? Do the production builders build scantlings just enough to meet a standard, or do they build them so that they are substantial and overbuilt? That was one of the criticisms of the European report discussed earlier. What about other parts of the boat? Only to standard, or robust and overbuilt?

Certain production builders have a lessor reputation for a reason. Certain production boats have a great reputation for a reason. I'm probably as frugal as a person as you would know, but there are certain things one doesn't scrimp on for quality and safety. Ask your self, Ikea furniture or Amish built?

When I was at the last Miami boat show earlier this year, I looked at the details (as much as one can) of many of the models, including some higher end ones. If you haven't done so, go to a major boat show and see what appears to be a decline in quality. Sure, things look wonderful from the outside, nice and shiny and new, but look beyond the things that might attract most wifes' (not all, most).

Notice how shallow many bilges are? Notice the pressboard furniture (THAT is a sin in a marine environment). Notice the lack of robustness on things like winches? Notice the difficulty at accessing many areas of the boat to repair or maintain things that will breakdown? Notice how difficult it is in many cases to add functionality without major surgery? What about real storage space? Tankage? A lot of things have to be constrained when maximizing interior space. Take a serious look next time if you get a chance.


And that is a large reason why many prefer older boats, even if it costs money to upgrade them. The old saying of buying something with "good bones" is a truism many agree with.

Although many like the looks and performance of many newer boats, how many can actually say that they are built better now than when manufacturers were not aware of how little they could get away with? Don't get me wrong, there have been improvement that fight things like osmosis, but that is only one issue, often not structural, but cosmetic.

The major production builders have done well in a couple of areas. The French seem to own on the charter market in mono boats. American builders seem to have mostly concentrated on the coastal and to some extent, Caribbean personal use market. Swedish builders still appear to be focussing on more ocean passage making boats.

And then there are the higher end builders who are much more of a custom builder than the production manufacturers could be.
These are almost verbatim words of my boatbuilder friend each time we shlepped to a boat show. First thing he would do upon climbing a supposedly "high end boat" (say a 36-38 footer selling for $450-500K and higher) would be to open a lazarette lid and feel with his hand the fiberglass walls inside. In 8 out of 10 boats his hand would be almost cut from the rough and unfinished fiberglass. And he would immediately suspect anything else on the boat saying that a builder who can't finish unseen space properly and which is most likely to be access in the most inopportune time such as severe weather etc., is building for the show and can't be trusted with anything else on the boat.

When I walked through the auctioned 1981 Swan47 I have followed that advice and was pleasantly surprised how every nook and cranny on her was finished and not a splinter of unruly fiberglass strand anywhere.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:45   #966
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
These are almost verbatim words of my boatbuilder friend each time we shlepped to a boat show. First thing he would do upon climbing a supposedly "high end boat" (say a 36-38 footer selling for $450-500K and higher) would be to open a lazarette lid and feel with his hand the fiberglass walls inside. In 8 out of 10 boats his hand would be almost cut from the rough and unfinished fiberglass. And he would immediately suspect anything else on the boat saying that a builder who can't finish unseen space properly and which is most likely to be access in the most inopportune time such as severe weather etc., is building for the show and can't be trusted with anything else on the boat.

When I walked through the auctioned 1981 Swan47 I have followed that advice and was pleasantly surprised how every nook and cranny on her was finished and not a splinter of unruly fiberglass strand anywhere.
Apparently some people think I was on a rant making those observations. Nice to see a 'yard guy' boat builder concurs with what admittedly are an amateur's observations. They just seem obvious to me that one would look at things like that. Whether new or used.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:47   #967
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Furniture, tankage, storage, access, scantlings, bilge depth, a general rant on what you personally think makes a good boat, a broad brush painting of any boat not of your criteria as bad, massive generalizations in whole, etc.

Which part related to your understanding of applying capsize ratio and motion comfort numbers did I miss?

Mark
The first two sentences.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:55   #968
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Apparently some people think I was on a rant making those observations. Nice to see a 'yard guy' boat builder concurs with what admittedly are an amateur's observations. They just seem obvious to me that one would look at things like that. Whether new or used.
I guess it should be true for any large ticket item purchase. I was once asked by a friend of a friend to come with him at an open house as a consultant. The price at the time was $1.3mil which back then was on a pricey side for that neighborhood. But supposedly it was a "luxury home", fancy appliances, etc. The person who I was consulting was a wealthy recent immigrant and was not familiar with our market or builders. So the first thing I spotted were the poorly installed covers on electrical switches throughout. One could see that they installed the covers and then painted the walls without even taking the covers off. I explained to that guy that whoever did the construction was not a very high quality contractor otherwise things like that would not be so blatantly visible. I advised him not to even think about this house. He felt otherwise and got to the point of professional inspection which turned up a slew of low-quality construction details in the house. There are some markers of low quality which always show up if you know where to look.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:34   #969
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Please step away from your Doublé Wheel Polipop and try to understand some basic physics.
Ladies and gentlemen, behold...the quote of the year.



Well-played, sir.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:39   #970
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There is an IP 38 doing the ARC, they are about 3 days from arriving while most of the boats the type of the Jeanneau 50DS arrived already at 4 days or so. More a week at sea on a passage? Do you call that comfortable?
Or "safer"?
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:40   #971
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
These are almost verbatim words of my boatbuilder friend each time we shlepped to a boat show. First thing he would do upon climbing a supposedly "high end boat" (say a 36-38 footer selling for $450-500K and higher) would be to open a lazarette lid and feel with his hand the fiberglass walls inside. In 8 out of 10 boats his hand would be almost cut from the rough and unfinished fiberglass. And he would immediately suspect anything else on the boat saying that a builder who can't finish unseen space properly and which is most likely to be access in the most inopportune time such as severe weather etc., is building for the show and can't be trusted with anything else on the boat.
...
Maybe something with the boats built in USA. I have already heard that the standards regarding building quality from Beneteau and Jeanneau are lower on the US than on the mother home, even if I obviously cannot know. Your comments make me suspect that it is the case. All European boats, even Bavarias, Beneteaus and Jeanneaus are finished on the inside hull with an epoxy finish, a two component bilge thick waterproof paint that normally is grey. On the inside of the hull what you should feel is the soft surface of that epoxy finish.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:49   #972
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Re: The Yard Guys

No,they are made it exactly the same, same materials same finish, i remember we have a topic regarding the plant in USA and the other one in France and someone prove that the materials and the building are exactly the same, Quality control to..I see Benes from USA and Benes from FR , in terms of quality i dont see much diference, and they dont use any Epoxy stuff in the hulls inside, bene and jeaneau, i see from bare fiberglass estensive spots to a well brushed gelcoat surface, if you see anyone with a grey bilge paint , denote a prior repair...
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Old 16-12-2014, 16:06   #973
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Maybe something with the boats built in USA. I have already heard that the standards regarding building quality from Beneteau and Jeanneau are lower on the US than on the mother home, even if I obviously cannot know. Your comments make me suspect that it is the case. All European boats, even Bavarias, Beneteaus and Jeanneaus are finished on the inside hull with an epoxy finish, a two component bilge thick waterproof paint that normally is grey. On the inside of the hull what you should feel is the soft surface of that epoxy finish.
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No,they are made it exactly the same, same materials same finish, i remember we have a topic regarding the plant in USA and the other one in France and someone prove that the materials and the building are exactly the same, Quality control to..I see Benes from USA and Benes from FR , in terms of quality i dont see much diference, and they dont use any Epoxy stuff in the hulls inside, bene and jeaneau, i see from bare fiberglass estensive spots to a well brushed gelcoat surface, if you see anyone with a grey bilge paint , denote a prior repair...
You couldn't have a more different perspective on the same thing. This is not opinion (like seaworthiness) that we are talking about, it is either white or black (or grey in this case).

The poster who mentioned what his boat builder friend experienced is similar to what neilpride advises, although the brand was not mentioned. Obviously one of these perspectives doesn't match up.
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Old 16-12-2014, 16:07   #974
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Re: The Yard Guys

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... and they dont use any Epoxy stuff in the hulls inside, bene and jeaneau, i see from bare fiberglass estensive spots to a well brushed gelcoat surface, if you see anyone with a grey bilge paint , denote a prior repair...
What do you mean with "fiberglass extensive spots"? You mean that out of those spots the interior of the hull is gelcoat? Never saw gelcoat on the interior of a hull, and my last Bavaria (2002) that I bought new should have been extensively repaired at the Bavaria Shipyard because the hull interior was all epoxy bottom paint, grey. My actual boat cannot be included on the mass production category, but again the hull is finished on the interior with epoxy paint.

When i go to the Dusseldorf boat show I will have a look to see what they are doing right now, but I bet that what I would find...is a grey epoxy paint finish.
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Old 16-12-2014, 16:13   #975
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Re: The Yard Guys

I mean they are extensive áreas in the interior hull with nothing, just bare rough fiberglass,i dont know your Comet interior, but bene and jeaneau use Gelcoat inside here and there and in dificult to reach áreas just bare FG.
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