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Old 10-12-2014, 05:26   #781
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Re: The Yard Guys

I don't know how you full time cruisers and working yard guys have so much time to post. When I am cruising I rarely touch internet except for the weather. I have not time for it and more nice things to do.

Anyway even not cruising now, nor working, this is taking too much time, so it was fun, I hope to have contributed for a more larger view of what is cruising and the many different boats suited to each particular life style and style of cruising but I have to stop with posting here. It is kind of additive and I have other things that need attention.

Cheers to all.
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:07   #782
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
What's up with boats and ACs? I could never get the concept. We were in the Keys in the middle of July when the air was 100F easily and the water around 80F. Never needed the AC what with the hard top, good ventilation throughout and an occasional swim. Is it some dockage related thing to have AC? A status symbol or what?
We have AC. For us it is none of what you say.

1. Remember that AC's are also heaters, so you need to factor in that side too. Unless you also don't get that concept.

2. If one is ever in a marina in the tropics (who can avoid this permanently?), you will suffer mightily without AC.

3. If you leave the boat for a time to travel, the AC keeps the boat nice and dry with no mold. I cringe when I see other boats left for a couple of months - black with mold, growing mushrooms and the stains and smell never goes away.

4. Even at anchor, there are some situations where the noseeums and mosquitos are vicious and the boat needs to be closed up, it is 95F with 95% humidity and zero wind. In these situations, we run our AC for an hour before bed to cool down, drop the humidity and let us get to sleep.

Mark
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:17   #783
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Re: The Yard Guys

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The function of a sailboat is to sail well.
Yes, but you are missing his point that the function of a "bluewater" boat is to survive the ultimate imagined storm. For that, one needs a short rig, a bathtub shaped hull and scantlings of 3-4" of solid fiberglass. And enough tankage for 100 days at sea, because that is what it takes.

Even among the "bluewater" boat people, there are arguments about how fast one should go. A good "bluewater" boat should always be leaving a safety slick to windward and forward of it, while being as acquainted with the fishes as it is with the birds.

You, my friend, are one of those newbies with fancy unproven ideas that give the whole "bluewater" cruising thing a bad rep.

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Old 10-12-2014, 06:23   #784
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Yes, but you are missing his point that the function of a "bluewater" boat is to survive the ultimate imagined storm. For that, one needs a short rig, a bathtub shaped hull and scantlings of 3-4" of solid fiberglass. And enough tankage for 100 days at sea, because that is what it takes.

Even among the "bluewater" boat people, there are arguments about how fast one should go. A good "bluewater" boat should always be leaving a safety slick to windward and forward of it, while being as acquainted with the fishes as it is with the birds.

You, my friend, are one of those newbies with fancy unproven ideas that give the whole "bluewater" cruising thing a bad rep.

Mark
Yes, a newbie with 30 000nm cruising or something like that. I believe that some can believe in what you said
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:30   #785
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I would say the majority of cruisers are making less than 24 hour hops, maybe not marina to Marina but at least anchorage to anchorage. This would be the majority of cruising the Bahamas, Caribbean and I'm sure many other places in the world.
Yes, I don't think many realize this. Even doing a typical circumnavigation requires only a handful of long passages (and usually only one uninterrupted ocean crossing), with the rest of the time being day hops, overnights, or possibly 2-3 day sails. Unless you are on a "bluewater" boat - if so, add a couple of days to those numbers.

I know of very few people cruising the entire Caribbean that have done more than 2-3 day passages. I know many who have been around the Caribe with only a couple of overnights ever done.

And unless one is pushing hard, all of this takes place over several years, with much time spent in places with facilities for refits, upgrades, provisioning, etc.

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Old 10-12-2014, 07:40   #786
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Well, some need Air conditioning too, but not all, neither all that stuff you describe, neither a Generator in what regards me, but any modern 45ft boat including performance boats will have space for a generator even if I am not seeing the ones that like performance cruisers installing one.

Regarding all the rest, solar energy and wind energy will be more than sufficient for the kind of simple life the ones that like performance boats appreciate. In what concerns toys you miss the point: the preferred toy of a performance sailor is the boat itself, it gives him all the fun he likes and wants.

But there is something that has to be said: that huge difference in performance regards the difference between performance boats and old heavy and medium designs, not new designs being them mass production main market cruisers or good medium well designed high quality cruising boats, the modern versions of those 30 year old designs that I had refereed as slow. On this and other ARC I had saw the very good performance of XC 45 and in a lesser degree of the new Halberg-Rassy, Amel and new Oyster. The difference still exists regarding performance cruisers but it is probably smaller than the one that separates this new medium weight new designs to their 30 year old ancestors.

I do not defend any particular type of boat for cruising. I know what I like and I know that many like different things, all types have advantages and disadvantages and each one will chose the right package of advantages and disadvantages, the one that will suit better his lifestyle.

Older boats have also an advantage: they are cheaper, even if that cheap can become expensive if one recovers them to new condition.

You say that almost all the old boats are in need of a serious refit or extensive cash flow in systems, just wrong again,,, there is lots of projects out there and there is lots and lots of old boats in turn key ready condition, just start the engine in my boat and you are ready to go.

I think you miss the YouTube some posts ago showing a Passport in bristol condition, but i let you enjoy with this ones in really nice condition. You see, link old boats with crappy projects is just again ignorance, same as link old boats with tiranosaurus full keel doublé ended slow bricks, i remind you fin keels and spade rudders are there since many years ago, many...in old boats to.

So i guess you got some hard bash in this topic and others simple because you are very radical with your arguments ...

Old boats next...







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Old 10-12-2014, 08:21   #787
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Yes, I don't think many realize this. Even doing a typical circumnavigation requires only a handful of long passages (and usually only one uninterrupted ocean crossing), with the rest of the time being day hops, overnights, or possibly 2-3 day sails. Unless you are on a "bluewater" boat - if so, add a couple of days to those numbers.

I know of very few people cruising the entire Caribbean that have done more than 2-3 day passages. I know many who have been around the Caribe with only a couple of overnights ever done.

And unless one is pushing hard, all of this takes place over several years, with much time spent in places with facilities for refits, upgrades, provisioning, etc.

Mark
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This is completely true and therefore one of the reasons that an RTW boat does not necessarily need to be built like a Sherman tank.

I believe the longest passage typically encounter on an RTW is about 4 weeks (Galapogos to the Marquesas, although with having to go round cape hope there probably is a 4 week passage there also).

With the weather data available today, getting caught by surprise in a major storm is carelessness on the part of the skipper. weather data is pretty good 3 days out. You can run far and fast in 3 days(probably a little further on modern boats than on older boats)
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:42   #788
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Re: The Yard Guys

Now what about motion comfort? Aren't modern boats more like cork bobbing on water? So yes you'll get there sooner but in much rougher shape compared to someone travelling in an older designed boat.

I notice this myself when I'm aboard my friend's 46footer which rates in low 20s for motion comfort as it was originally built for speed and racing (in early 80s) and only recently retrofitted by my friend as a live aboard. My 36footer built at the same time but as much more of a cruiser than a racer (PHRF in mid 160s) rates in low 30s for MC and one notices it immediately. Now sure his 46footer in any case is a more comfortable boat, etc. But if I had to chose between EQUALLY sized boats built with those respective differences I'd go with my version anytime.
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Old 10-12-2014, 09:11   #789
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
You say that almost all the old boats are in need of a serious refit or extensive cash flow in systems, just wrong again,,, there is lots of projects out there and there is lots and lots of old boats in turn key ready condition, just start the engine in my boat and you are ready to go.

I think you miss the YouTube some posts ago showing a Passport in bristol condition, but i let you enjoy with this ones in really nice condition. You see, link old boats with crappy projects is just again ignorance, same as link old boats with tiranosaurus full keel doublé ended slow bricks, i remind you fin keels and spade rudders are there since many years ago, many...in old boats to.

So i guess you got some hard bash in this topic and others simple because you are very radical with your arguments ...

Old boats next...


I woulds like to go away so please stop quoting me, that demands a reply, not to be rude and ignore you.

The boat looking good does not mean it has a new engine, a new mast, new shrouds, new connections of the shrouds to the boat structure...new every metal part subjected to stress, new electrical connections, new interior plumbing, new electronics, new refrigerator and so on. Almost for sure it has not otherwise it would not be for selling at USD 160 000.

Anyway I said that old boats had the advantage of being cheaper and one can get a miracle and have just a boat where the owner had spent recently more than what he is selling it for but that does not take away that the performance of that 30 year old boat is a lousy one compared with modern boats of the same type. On another thread he heard an ex-owner of a Mason 44 saying how much better was the performance of his modern bluewater boat compared with the old Mason (and is actual boat is a good one but not a particularly fast one).

You can see also that on the ARC the old Mason 44 is dragging at the end of the fleet, near the old Nauticats while a modern Delphia 33 is way far awead and the new boats of the same type are even more far away. In fact the faster of them, a XC45 has already arrived (the Mason44 was at 940NM, many sailing days behind).



Regarding my views being radical about the cost of recovering all boats to bluewater condition, I am far away from being the only one that thinks that way, were some thoughts of others about the subject:

This is on the page of a shipyard that does quality boats refits:

"Obviously, it is not cheap to have a boat refitted, and believing one can make money by buying a bargain second-hand boat, refitting her and selling her more expensively is risky. Rather, customers, such as Artur, love their boats and find an investment in a refit is a lasting value for themselves. Customers are very well aware of the fact that buying a new boat is no less risky these days, often involving a hefty decrease in a new boat’s value during the first years of ownership."
Regina Sailing – Cruising in Safety, Comfort and Style | Nautical Channel on-site in Ellös

Another one:

Purchasing Options
1. New Production Boat: Because of a shortage of quality 3-10 year old ocean-cruising boats, and the high cost and amount of time involved in upgrading a solid 10+-year-old boat, purchasing a quality new production boat is more attractive now than ever.

Example: if you purchase a 15 year old boat for $80,000, spend $50,000 replacing engine, sails, wiring, tanks, rigging, electronics and epoxy bottom job using 1-2 years of potential cruising time in the process, you end up with a 17 year old boat, probably worth around $90,000.

A better choice might be a new boat that costs more initially but returns closer to 100% of your investment. You will be out cruising 1-3 years earlier with fewer mechanical breakdowns.

Some people use the justification that since they have rebuilt every system on their boat, they now can fix them in some distant port. I personally would rather spend that time cruising than with my head down in the bilge fixing something that I overhauled a year earlier!

....
Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

All dangerous radicals saying about the same thing I had said and some are even Yard guys.
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Old 10-12-2014, 09:27   #790
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Now what about motion comfort? Aren't modern boats more like cork bobbing on water? So yes you'll get there sooner but in much rougher shape compared to someone travelling in an older designed boat.
I will take a broad-sterned, shallow bilge, new design boat steadily running downwind in the trades any day over death-rolling while tossing my cookies in a traditional "bluewater" boat.

Actually, just give me a multihull.

How do you define "motion comfort"?

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Old 10-12-2014, 09:48   #791
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Re: The Yard Guys

Paulo i stop quoting you for god shake, still no logic in your arguments, you dont need to buy a 30 years old crapp and spend thousands in a refit, you just need to found the boat with a fresh refit or in ship shape condition , there is many in the market, or if you are the kind of person with cash and time , refit one at your own expenses,, there is absoluty nothing wrong with that, diferent folks diferent strokes ...

You dont realice that some boatyards are filled with Young boats with plenty of problems and costly bills he? and sometimes out of any warranty period...

You believe that for cruising in a old boat you need a new engine BS, new rigging BS, new sails BS... lets see , my boat have Ullman sails , they are 4 years old, i got a nice deal and bit the bullet, amazing quality , full batten, 3 reef points and heavy duty cloth , the spade jib and the satysail the same, my engine is a Perkins M90 or 4236M , rebuild it by the previous owner, with bills to probe that ,,,not the tipical BS, i mean , a OEM Perkins full rebuild kit in the bill..
You see , i found this boat with the basic stuff engine sails, hull , rudder, keel, DC and AC , and lots of more in really good condition..

You think your Comet is out of the equation, then tell me what you are going to do when the systems , rigging, sails, engine reach enough hours to call for a replacement?? sell the boat and buy a new one?? Lol.
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Old 10-12-2014, 10:22   #792
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Re: The Yard Guys

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..

You think your Comet is out of the equation, then tell me what you are going to do when the systems , rigging, sails, engine reach enough hours to call for a replacement?? sell the boat and buy a new one?? Lol.
Well, if I had the money, I mean if I was still working and not retired at half pay enjoying life it would certainly what I would do, I mean to buy a new and better boat when this one needed a serious upgrade. Now i would probably just buy another 5 year old boat.

The boat was bought in 2012 with 5 years and very little used. I spent very little on it on 3 years of cruising seasons (4 to 5 months each). The engine had about 600hours, it ha snow about 2000h. I have some maintenance previewed, not because it has problems but just regular maintenance. Nothing expensive. Many years still to go till a replacement.

The rig is rod and probably I will dismount it, fully check it and change the pressure stress points in two years. It is possible that I will change it altogether, it depends on prices. The sails have two years, not because I did not have sails but because I did not wanted to cruise with racing sails. They are good for more 5 years. All the other systems are fine and the electronics are not old enough to justify a replacement. So yes, i have spent very little on the boat except the sails, not because I needed to, but because I wanted to (and I could). The boat costed me about half the price of a new boat.

I don't know when I will feel the necessity to substitute this one, probably when I consider this one is outdated and I can find one with about 5 years better than this one. For now I am happy with it. The boat is still in production, still winning races and the major modification was a two well set up instead of a single one. It has a comfortable cruising interior, is fast and enjoyable to sail. The new MKII, equal to mine in everything (including the interior) except regarding the two wheels and a different bowsprite is this one:

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Old 10-12-2014, 10:33   #793
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Re: The Yard Guys

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That boat sure hobby horses a lot tied to the dock for the water to be that glassy!

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Old 10-12-2014, 10:57   #794
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Interesting thread...

I think instead of comparing polar diagrams, this thread might be better served comparing distances between re-provisioning stops.

Moellers Law: The sea keeping ability of a boat is inversely proportionate to the number of jerry cans required for it to reach its destination.

Grin...

Zach
Here's a Luders 44 that sold for less than $3K at auction. Would you recommend this boat to newb for bluewater cruising?

Luders 44 Yawl Sail Boat - Government Liquidation

Cheap baby. And fine "bones" for sure.

How much do you think would have to go into it to bring it up to "ready to go" condition? $50K, $100K, maybe $250K like Minaret's boat?

Do you have some photos of common build issues with boats you see (production or blue)?
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Old 10-12-2014, 11:03   #795
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Re: The Yard Guys

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That makes some sense to me but I don't understand why do you want to take speed of sailing boats out of the equation, see:

The needed of tankage on a boat (and eventual needs of Jerrry cans) is on the inverse proportion of its sailing potential, so a very good sailing boat one that has not only a good offshore potential but a very good performance with very light winds will dispense not only the aditional jerry cans but almost all tankage and therefore by the so called Moellers law will have an outstanding sea keeping ability.

Look at the ARC, the first performance 40ft cruiser has already arrived while the heavy old boats with huge tankage, like a Mason 44, two Nauticats, an Island Packet and a Maramu are still at midway. Look at how much more food, water, not to mention fuel those boats will need, taking almost 50% more time for a crossing.
This is a great point that most of the BWC don't seem to get.
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