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Old 08-12-2014, 15:37   #691
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Transmitterdan hit the nail, but im going to add to the shipping trafic , the lee shores, the harbours, bars, shoals etc.. who make the coastal thing sometimes dangerous, is not just short step seas...

Neil is right. And no boat can survive most of these problems when driven by an idiot. And any boat will survive them when commanded by a competent sailor.
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:18   #692
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Surely you don't think the measuring stick for "blue water" is what kind of a short term beating it can take? That's a part of it but not all. Long passages (e.g. 15-25 days) require many things different than a coastal boat. Rigging and hardware stores are not just a few hours away. The amount of headroom in the design parameters has to be more for a voyaging boat. Big ocean waves can be a lot more damaging that short near shore waves. For one thing they can last a lot longer. Many long days at sea where the boat is constantly accelerated and decelerated wears on engine beds, chainplates, rigging, etc. Coastal boats see short term events that last a few minutes to an hour or two. Long duration voyages require a much different philosophy.
To be clear, I'm not talking about a small "coastal" boat. I'm talking about the same boats we've always been talking about...Category A rated production boats. When someone claims a BeneHunterLina - or a catamaran - or whatever - is really just a "coastal cruiser" - what exactly do they mean?

As for duration of stress, I can see this to some degree. But I honestly don't think the rigging is THAT weak. And as we know, big, breaking ocean waves are a pretty rare event for cruisers...unless they have been completely caught out.

I can actually see your force/duration argument (i.e. - cycles) holding true for rudders more than anything. And we have seen a good number of those fail.

But, again, if a boat claims to be blue water (i.e. - Category A) but is "actually only a coastal cruiser" - what makes that difference (apart from passage duration issues) and how exactly is that inferior to a blue water boat when the risks are higher closer to shore?

Isn't the implication that these boats shouldn't get too far away from shore because "it's dangerous out there"?

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These are examples of avoidable situations but Team Vestas was on a long passage. So a passage maker has to handle many days at sea and coastal conditions and everything in between. When you are on a passage and conditions are not to your liking you can't sail an hour away and get away from it as a coastal sailor can.
Again - this is the duration argument...not necessarily the strength argument. Don't you find it amazing that Vestas stayed together after hitting the bricks at 19 knots? I'd say that boat was definitely built for "coastal cruising". Heh-heh.

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This notion is wrong. If it were so the insurance companies would give discounts for sailors that are willing to head out to sea when a named storm approaches. You must realize how silly that sounds because it is silly.
Are you serious? What does "sea room" mean?

First, I usually don't take seamanship advice from an insurance broker. Second, I think you misunderstood several things. I didn't say "named storm". I meant that if you're out in the ocean and a storm is imminent, it's generally much better to head out (establish sea room) than trying to run a raging cut or bar. Right?

So - not silly at all actually.

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I'm sorry, but this so defies all logic that I'm not sure what to say.
My point is that if a boat is built to deal with all the dangers of coastal sailing, it will be a tank. After all, remember that Moody that lost its rudder and sank? It was in the ICW.
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:25   #693
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Re: The Yard Guys

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This notion is wrong. If it were so the insurance companies would give discounts for sailors that are willing to head out to sea when a named storm approaches. You must realize how silly that sounds because it is silly.
Many insurance companies do just that in practice. If one is in the hurricane box, there is no coverage - unless at sea. Our present insurance has a higher deductible for a named storm - unless at sea.

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Old 08-12-2014, 16:26   #694
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Re: The Yard Guys

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No, it's like having an older but initially well built and very comfortable and safe car made with quality parts by proud craftsmen rather than a newish, more shiny tin box made by uneducated zombies out of questionable materials in some 3rd world hell hole and which will fall apart way before the older one will require a major fix.
Yes, that is what I was talking about regarding mounting an old ex race worse already without teeth and think it can still cover larger distances with the pace of young horses.
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:29   #695
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Re: The Yard Guys

About run offshore if a storm is aproaching , depend of many factors, how close you are to the nearest safety harbour, port, marina? how strong is the storm? really ,,if i Hear in the WX a f11 or f12 aproaching my position rest assured im going to beach the boat in the nearest shore posible...if i cant reach a safe harbour..
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:40   #696
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Shade and weather protection and a lesser provisioning are part of why the Sig 45 is a coastal cruiser. improving those aspects cost weight and speed compromises not in the description of the vessel.



With its designers i have no issue with its seaworthiness and construction.

I'll have to remember that. If I sail coastal I will have more shade from the sun and less weather to be protected from than being offshore? I don't think so.


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Old 08-12-2014, 16:58   #697
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Well mate, you know the diference between your Comet and a bene or jeaneau docked together at first sight, no diference... all the PWB Euro style box hulls looks the same to me, pretending to have some status , hahahh... you funy...


The Nauticat 38 is not a coastal boat, is the friking EU ISO CIRCUS RATED who say that,, not Nauticat not even the designer...

I think you are matched with Smack in terms of croosing oceans experience, go ahead and do a ARC, Smack next year is doing the NARC, LolOlO,,,,, you guys can meet together at some point in the carib and Exchange ideas and opinions,,,

The point is Paulo, sailing in a bullet with your Pal¡¡ is not the same as cruising the oceans with kids and family and lots of gear,,, since all boats are compromises, you need to weight your preferences.....
Yes, that checks up: only somebody that knows so little about boat design and modern boats could have said that it would have difficulty in distinguishing between a new Comet and a new Beneteau. If we were talking about cars it was not seeing the difference between a Maserati and a Ford focus. My mother was like that. She did not understand nothing about cars and could not tell them apart even if so distinct as those two. They all had wheels after all, as all sailboats have sails

Regarding sailboats and cruising you seem not to understand that most don't car about crossing oceans even if they have boats that can do that. They have no desire to do that and that does not fit in their cruising lifestyle.

Regarding old designs and new designs the last post that I made on the ARC thread has something relevant for the likes of you. Just look at the picture of boats spread out on the Atlantic while the first true small performance cruiser is arriving, a Grand Soleil 43 and the first performance 40fter is not far away, let's have a look at the boats that are really on the tail of the transat, almost half way between Cabo Verde and Santa Lucia:

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Look at this image and tell me how can someone says that speed among cruising boats cannot make a big difference on a time it takes a crossing



Let's look at the last boats, not counting the ones that departed much later or stopped in Cabo Verde and the loser, by far is an American Island Packet 38. certainly it is badly sailed but even so it is impressive since it is much behind all other boats. Even much smaller boats are now way ahead. An old Allegro 33 is next, a bit ahead an also old small Forgus 35 sails side by side with an old Mason 44, an old Amel Maramu. A bit ahead a Nauticat 42 a Southerly 42 a Jeanneau Sunfizz 40 and a Nauticat 43.

What have all these boats in common, with the exception of the Southerly 42?: they are old boats and older models. to those we would have joined the Moody 47 if he did not had sailed to Cabo Verde. I don't believe in coincidences, at least such a big one so I believe we can conclude that older designs have a worse performance then newer boats, specially if we consider that a recent Amel is much much ahead.

This can look obvious but I have been repeatedly said otherwise on this forum. Also has been said that performance boats, if charged, are not faster then the previous ones, so let's look at the last boats among modern performance cruisers: two First a 40.7 and a certainly very badly sailed Firt 44.7, at about the middle of the fleet. Al the others, and they are many, are ahead, some much ahead.

That is also relevant in what regards the comparison of old designs, mostly middle wight boats with relatively modern performance cruisers.

Now that the the obvious have been stated...
If a Nauticat 38 was there, it would be way back from those Nauticat 42 and 42 (not from the motorsailing series) and way back that IP 38, a little point on the middle of nowhere between them and Cabo Verde.
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Old 08-12-2014, 17:11   #698
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Shade and weather protection and a lesser provisioning are part of why the Sig 45 is a coastal cruiser. improving those aspects cost weight and speed compromises not in the description of the vessel.
....
You mean the boat with two hulls and 45ft has no space for provisions to make a crossing?

And do you think that there is no sun on coastal cruising or that the weather protection is more needed crossing the Atlantic then sailing on the Med?

Like I say, see if you are able not to measure all boats for what you feel fit to you. You are like a presumptuous guy saying to a guy that travels and like to travel on a powerful motorcycle that is motorcycle is no good for that because it has no protection against the weather and has no sun protection
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Old 08-12-2014, 17:16   #699
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
About run offshore if a storm is aproaching , depend of many factors, how close you are to the nearest safety harbour, port, marina? how strong is the storm? really ,,if i Hear in the WX a f11 or f12 aproaching my position rest assured im going to beach the boat in the nearest shore posible...if i cant reach a safe harbour..
Well if you consider f8 to f10, more frequent conditions, most of the guys that died on sailboat accidents on this coast (the vast majority foreigners) had died because against the authorities advise, tried to enter harbors. Some were said to be experienced sailors.
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Old 08-12-2014, 17:47   #700
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Yes, that checks up: only somebody that knows so little about boat design and modern boats could have said that it would have difficulty in distinguishing between a new Comet and a new Beneteau. If we were talking about cars it was not seeing the difference between a Maserati and a Ford focus. My mother was like that. She did not understand nothing about cars and could not tell them apart even if so distinct as those two. They all had wheels after all, as all sailboats have sails

Regarding sailboats and cruising you seem not to understand that most don't car about crossing oceans even if they have boats that can do that. They have no desire to do that and that does not fit in their cruising lifestyle.

Regarding old designs and new designs the last post that I made on the ARC thread has something relevant for the likes of you. Just look at the picture of boats spread out on the Atlantic while the first true small performance cruiser is arriving, a Grand Soleil 43 and the first performance 40fter is not far away, let's have a look at the boats that are really on the tail of the transat, almost half way between Cabo Verde and Santa Lucia:



If a Nauticat 38 was there, it would be way back from those Nauticat 42 and 42 (not from the motorsailing series) and way back that IP 38, a little point on the middle of nowhere between them and Cabo Verde.

He he, the diference is, i deal with new boats each month, you deal with internet brochures and web fórums so far, so is really unfair for you ..Internet experts, we dont see any actual proof of something..

You seems confused again, i like new stuff, and old stuff to, i love to set sail in a sunday in a small melges 24 , and probably in a couple of weeks i move a Big Dufour to Virging Gorda, just 70 miles overnight, just for fun ..
And my wife want to improve our sailing experience and fell in love with a big old Wauquiez, after all is happy in a old boat, new boat or whatever thing have a mast and sails, is not bored in any way, see....

Now to claim that a N38 is a coastal boat can only come from ignorance, but oh well...

Lets see if you understand that, the ARC dont mean to much in perfomance or style data, in the other topic you got few Smart responses about that, mom and pop fishing and reefed in a big Oyster, or 2 racing brains surfing in a pogo? after all is a big ocean croosing and i dont think many crews want to break something or push the limits, is not a race...
Then your ARC thingy is useless..

Put all this new flat chine bottoms to pound in a long ocean passage to windward, and we see...You seems no understand that many cruisers dont give a crap about supersonic speeds, and that DW perfomance... not me , im happy with average 6 or 7 knts, more ? yes why not...

and now this part...



Regarding sailboats and cruising you seem not to understand that most don't car about crossing oceans even if they have boats that can do that. They have no desire to do that and that does not fit in their cruising lifestyle.

So you speak from the experience of thousands of cruisers or future cruisers , you see how silly sounds this? how the hell you know what the people want or desire???

Just wonder....
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Old 08-12-2014, 17:57   #701
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Re: The Yard Guys

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.After all, remember that Moody that lost its rudder and sank? It was in the ICW.
Are Moodys still losing their rudders? I recall a spate of skeg failures on Moodys in the mid 1980s.... One bloke lost skeg, rudder, and boat between Capetown and Australia... made a lot of noise in yachting press... took Moody to court over it.... settled out of court so I assume he was given a large slab of cash to shut his gob and say no more about it.....
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Old 08-12-2014, 18:04   #702
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Re: The Yard Guys

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not me , im happy with average 6 or 7 knts, more ? yes why not...
Like I said, unless you're on an ex-Volvo or Vendeè planing vessel, sailboats either fit the category of 'slow' or 'really slow.'

Polux -- what's with you, my friend?! You keep sayin' how it's different strokes for different folks, but then you keep coming back to speed/performance as the deciding factor! What gives??
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Old 08-12-2014, 18:11   #703
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Are Moodys still losing their rudders? I recall a spate of skeg failures on Moodys in the mid 1980s.... One bloke lost skeg, rudder, and boat between Capetown and Australia... made a lot of noise in yachting press... took Moody to court over it.... settled out of court so I assume he was given a large slab of cash to shut his gob and say no more about it.....



Do a bit of digging and you will find that this particular Moody suffered severe skeg failure due to an extremely poor repair which failed when a tow boat dragged them off a bank in the usual idiotic fashion. They posted here, with pics, and I tried to help them out a bit. Just a bit more fact bending to match the agenda....
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Old 08-12-2014, 18:31   #704
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Re: The Yard Guys

Where i can found that topic? just puting moody in the search tab?
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Old 08-12-2014, 19:02   #705
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Re: The Yard Guys

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...n any way, see....

Now to claim that a N38 is a coastal boat can only come from ignorance, but oh well...
You mean that boat with a huge windage, a cage window and 28% of D/B ratio on an old keel with a low draft?
This one?





The one you say it has a lateral not watertight door and is not able to pass the Class A relatively small minimum demanded in what regards safety and seaworthiness?
´

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...

Regarding sailboats and cruising you seem not to understand that most don't car about crossing oceans even if they have boats that can do that. They have no desire to do that and that does not fit in their cruising lifestyle.

So you speak from the experience of thousands of cruisers or future cruisers , you see how silly sounds this? how the hell you know what the people want or desire???

Just wonder....
That is easy to know. People do what they desire to do. If you see that most cruisers have boats with the ability to cross oceans and see only a small portion of them crossing the Atlantic it is because they don't want to. Or do you really think that crossing the Atlantic, besides being boring to most, is something special or dificult?

There will be very few that will enjoy 20 days at sea without seeing land or having a nice meal on a restaurant, a beer at the bar, or changing from time to time from one nice anchorage to another. Sure, it will be nice to know the Caribbean, but like most Americans do regarding the Med, it is a lot less boring and time consuming to charter a boat there. I don't know if I ever cross the Atlantic but you can be sure that if I cross it will not be for the pleasure of crossing it (boring stuff) but for the pleasure to sail on the Caribbean with my own boat. It is worth it? I did not decide yet, but for most it isn't.
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