The Yard Guys

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Everyone, please take note. This is how real sailors do things. We punch eachother in the mouth over and over in a debate - then help each other when it's needed. If you can't do this - you're not a sailor.

I'm pretty sure that boats with keel-stepped masts don't have these sorts of problems.

FWIW, I keep a length of coiled-up 'fish-tape' onboard for this kind of stuff. It's a thin, stiff, plastic line with slots in each end which you can tie wire or line onto. It will shove through small openings and not collapse so you can often keep on shoving, all the while pushing a wire or guide line along with it. Great for ham-fisted guys like me who lack yard guy expertise.

If all else fails, I'd personally try more scotch.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'm pretty sure that boats with keel-stepped masts don't have these sorts of problems.

FWIW, I keep a length of coiled-up 'fish-tape' onboard for this kind of stuff. It's a thin, stiff, plastic line with slots in each end which you can tie wire or line onto. It will shove through small openings and not collapse so you can often keep on shoving, all the while pushing a wire or guide line along with it. Great for ham-fisted guys like me who lack yard guy expertise.

If all else fails, I'd personally try more scotch.

Heh-heh. Scotch is working very well at the moment.

BTW - they actually punched a hole in a perfectly good deck to step a silly mast? Crazy.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

...

A boat built for extended, offshore voyaging with a family...including high latitudes, is a very specialized boat. This activity is, compared to how virtually everyone out there perceives "cruising" (including rounding the world), extremely rare. So, you're absolutely right. If anyone is using standards for this type of boat to apply to any kind of "cruising" - they are completely off-base.

However, saying that everything else "means a season in the Caribbean or two" isn't what we've been talking about either. We've been using the standard of "blue water cruising" that includes crossing oceans and even circs - and what kind of boat is suitable for that.

In this middle ground - there are LOTS of boats that are suitable, including the production boats.

Let's get back to this point. Here you have two companies that make bluewater sailing yachts and what they call explorer yachts, yachts designed to sail in high latitudes and forsaken places, Garcia and Futuna.

let's start with Garcia: Here is the GY65:

That they describe as:
"Elite yacht for speed and distance...Yachts with integral centerboard or standard keel, built in keeping with the Garcia tradition for quality and skill. The GY65 is a very elegant sailing boat ... for owners who are ocean cruising enthusiasts."

and here you have the Garcia 45 Exploration:

that they describe as:
The new exploration boat developed with Jimmy Cornell a boat designed to sail and live aboard both in high latitudes and tropical waters.

Regarding Futuna, this is the Futuna 57:

They describe it as:
ocean cruisers: The Futuna 57 .. has exceptional sea-keeping qualities characterized by great directional stability downwind and very high average speeds on all points of sailing. ...For blue water cruising, the volume of the hull easily accommodates the load necessary for extended voyages, whilst the concentration of the accommodation near the center of the hull combined with a very low center of gravity, limits pitching, and makes the boat stiff under sail, guaranteeing a seaworthy boat that is safe and comfortable in all conditions...This 57' sail cruiser provide ample storage space for all equipments needed for a long distance trip in full autonomy.

and this is the Futuna Explorer 54:

That they describe as:
Expedition sailers:The Explorer 54 is a strong all aluminum sailboat for expedition, charter, adventure and life aboard. ...While primarily designed for exploration and far away travels the Explorer made no compromise on sailing performance.

So, if you want to go sailing for remote places have an Exploration boat. If you want to do bluewater sailing and cross the oceans fast and with style, enjoying the more beautiful cruising grounds, have a fast and enjoyable bluewater cruiser.

They can do both thinks but each type is much better doing what it was designed primarily for.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Polux

Let's get back to this point. Here you have two companies that make bluewater sailing yachts and what they call explorer yachts, yachts designed to sail in high latitudes and forsaken places, Garcia and Futuna.

let's start with Garcia: Here is the GY65:

That they describe as:
"Elite yacht for speed and distance...Yachts with integral centerboard or standard keel, built in keeping with the Garcia tradition for quality and skill. The GY65 is a very elegant sailing boat ... for owners who are ocean cruising enthusiasts."

and here you have the Garcia 45 Exploration:

that they describe as:
The new exploration boat developed with Jimmy Cornell a boat designed to sail and live aboard both in high latitudes and tropical waters.

Regarding Futuna, this is the Futuna 57:

They describe it as:
ocean cruisers: The Futuna 57 .. has exceptional sea-keeping qualities characterized by great directional stability downwind and very high average speeds on all points of sailing. ...For blue water cruising, the volume of the hull easily accommodates the load necessary for extended voyages, whilst the concentration of the accommodation near the center of the hull combined with a very low center of gravity, limits pitching, and makes the boat stiff under sail, guaranteeing a seaworthy boat that is safe and comfortable in all conditions...This 57' sail cruiser provide ample storage space for all equipments needed for a long distance trip in full autonomy.

and this is the Futuna Explorer 54:

That they describe as:
Expedition sailers:The Explorer 54 is a strong all aluminum sailboat for expedition, charter, adventure and life aboard. ...While primarily designed for exploration and far away travels the Explorer made no compromise on sailing performance.

So, if you want to go sailing for remote places have an Exploration boat. If you want to do bluewater sailing and cross the oceans fast and with style, enjoying the more beautiful cruising grounds, have a fast and enjoyable bluewater cruiser.

They can do both thinks but each type is much better doing what it was designed primarily for.

Don't tell me Jim Cornell has decided to move to the ineficient/dangerous vertical windows as are many of the modern cat designers.

Jim Cornell should know something about living aboard.

Just can't possibly be fast and practical in the tropics also. They do say no compromises on sailing performance unless that is just pure advertising crap.

Practical but won't look good for the purerists. We will see more on monohull designs I expect.

Heaven help us.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by downunder

Don't tell me Jim Cornell has decided to move to the ineficient/dangerous vertical windows as are many of the modern cat designers.

Jim Cornell should know something about living aboard.

Just can't possibly be fast and practical in the tropics also. They do say no compromises on sailing performance unless that is just pure advertising crap.

Practical but won't look good for the purerists. We will see more on monohull designs I expect.

Heaven help us.

Again? You seem not to understand: Vertical surfaces create windage and in what regards performance they are always prejudicial. If you look to Garcia Cornell's and to the Garcia GY65 you will see that GY65 has less windage because it is a sailing boat designed to have a better sailing performance than the Exploration 45.

It goes with the design: if you want better performance one of the factors is diminishing windage, so if you want to design a fast boat you diminish windage.

Here you have the same case with the Gunboats that you have talked about as an example: When Gunboat wants to make a faster cruising Gunboat, they diminish windage on the design. Look at those two gunboats: the faster design is the one with less windage.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Polux

Again? You seem not to understand: Vertical surfaces create windage and in what regards performance they are always prejudicial. If you look to Garcia Cornell's and to the Garcia GY65 you will see that GY65 has less windage because it is a sailing boat designed to have a better sailing performance than the Exploration 45.

It goes with the design: if you want better performance one of the factors is diminishing windage, so if you want to design a fast boat you diminish windage.

Here you have the same case with the Gunboats that you have talked about as an example: When Gunboat wants to make a faster cruising Gunboat, they diminish windage on the design. Look at those two gunboats: the faster design is the one with less windage.

Not everyone is chasing the fastest design and goes for the least windage.

You might be happy with the Sig 45 you listed earlier as a cruiser but it really is more of a racer.

there is now doubt the Sig 45 is a quality built and fast vessel.

Most cruisers unlike racers are happy to accept some compromises on windage to achieve practical livable conditions for cruising.

The real racers will accept no compromise on any aspects chasing speed. that is not the nature of cruising.

Clearly most Gunboat owners are also not chasing outright speed rather a comfortable semi racer compromise. How many of those low windage Gunboats are on the water? Perhaps one? Have not heard of one yet.

cheers

[neilpride]

Is not a cruising boat, is a hobbie cat on steroids,or a AC45 replica ...

[smj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Is not a cruising boat, is a hobbie cat on steroids,or a AC45 replica ...

http://youtu.be/c1qiqh6gIzU

It's got the interior of a cruiser and sails like a racer. If you can deal with the open bridge deck I would say it's one hell of a performance cruiser.


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[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smj

http://youtu.be/c1qiqh6gIzU

It's got the interior of a cruiser and sails like a racer. If you can deal with the open bridge deck I would say it's one hell of a performance cruiser.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I disagree, from Gunboat web site.
A NEW MULTIPURPOSE COASTAL CRUISER-RACER
WITH IMPRESSIVE BENEFITS AT 40'

Yamaha 20hp retractable outboard on centerline ,
75 Liters wáter single tank.
Far way for a cruising point of view.
3 tons loaded. Hell is light this thing....!!!

[smj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I disagree, from Gunboat web site.
A NEW MULTIPURPOSE COASTAL CRUISER-RACER
WITH IMPRESSIVE BENEFITS AT 40'

Yamaha 20hp retractable outboard on centerline ,
75 Liters wáter single tank.
Far way for a cruising point of view.
3 tons loaded. Hell is light this thing....!!!

I was talking about the Sig 45:-)


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[zeehag]

i sooo love my deep full keeled heavy crab crushing antique politically incorrect go anywhere except florida and bahamas fat bottomed leaky teaky keel stepped masted boat with its heart shaped transom
didnt want to go to bahamas anyway.....
and i can sail in gales without problems.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smj

I was talking about the Sig 45:-)


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Haa my bad, i thought you talk about the G4..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by downunder

Not everyone is chasing the fastest design and goes for the least windage.

You might be happy with the Sig 45 you listed earlier as a cruiser but it really is more of a racer.

there is now doubt the Sig 45 is a quality built and fast vessel.

Most cruisers unlike racers are happy to accept some compromises on windage to achieve practical livable conditions for cruising.

The real racers will accept no compromise on any aspects chasing speed. that is not the nature of cruising.

Clearly most Gunboat owners are also not chasing outright speed rather a comfortable semi racer compromise. How many of those low windage Gunboats are on the water? Perhaps one? Have not heard of one yet.

cheers

Let see if we can agree. What I said it was that windage is always prejudicial to performance, regarding a low windage Lerouge design, that you found outdated because it had no vertical windows.

All cruising boat designs are compromises in what regards sailing. Only open racers don't compromise. In what regards compromise, some compromise less, other more, including windage. The compromises in what regards windage are opposed to a better and bigger interior space. There are boats to all the tastes, from the motorsailor Nauticat 33, that has the biggest and more enjoyable space to live aboard that I ever saw on a 33ft monohull, to boats like the new Gunboat that compromises very little regarding performance.

There are designs for all tastes and for all types of sailor's cruising and sailing preferences and what is wrong is to access all the boat's designs by our own preferences.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

...

It's got the interior of a cruiser and sails like a racer. If you can deal with the open bridge deck I would say it's one hell of a performance cruiser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1qi...ature=youtu.be

And besides all that is beautiful...I could not ask for more...except the money to have on

[smj]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i sooo love my deep full keeled heavy crab crushing antique politically incorrect go anywhere except florida and bahamas fat bottomed leaky teaky keel stepped masted boat with its heart shaped transom
didnt want to go to bahamas anyway.....
and i can sail in gales without problems.

Most any boat can sail in a gale, light winds is the problem for most!


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