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Old 05-12-2014, 17:22   #646
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Re: The Yard Guys

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They are cats, who cares?

(ducking for cover and running out of here as quickly as possible)
Just when I was thinking the big debate was finally starting to simmer down . . . .
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Old 05-12-2014, 17:50   #647
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Re: The Yard Guys

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You are getting it now with the cat design trends.

More shade and airflow without compromising to much. As done by recent outremers, tony graingers and schonning designs. Seems the direction unlike the Philocat witch encourages light/read heat into the saloon without ventilation. The practical designes by many of the top designers thesedays are using overhangs and more verticle windows without compromising seaworthiness.

cheers

Some might see the Philocat as sexy and fast. I see it as a fast vessel with old looks and compronised for cruising/liveaboard by the saloon design.
There is not a right cruising cat as there is not a right cruising monohul, some are performance cats and monohulls, others are what is called main market cats and monohulls. They are all perfect for some cruiser....but not the same one for each type.

Even among performance cats there are ones that compromise more performance regarding interior space than others. The perfect multihul or monohul in what regards cruising depends on what importance you give to sailing pleasure regarding cruising and among the ones that like sailing pleasure I believe that there is not a single one that would not like to out sail any boat that appears on the horizon.

Regarding sailing boats windage is always detrimental to performance and more on a cruising cat because by design they have more windage than a monohull. If you look at the designs you have posted you will see that the sides of the cabin are slightly rounded and inclined to diminish windage, much more than on that VPLP design I posted. The Tan 66 is a less sportive boat than the Outremer and that is translated also on a bigger windage.

Regarding Tony Grainger I like particularly his last designs on multihulls. These fast cruisers have a very low windage. I love them, just beautiful.



here you have a more sportive cat, the new Sig 60



You can notice that it has less windage than any of the boats you posted, but not less than the very sportive Philocat that is making a hell of an ARC.

It has all to do with the compromises you accept regarding less sail performance and more interior space. windage, is always a negative factor in what regards performance

Here you have a Sig 45 one of the cats that compromise less regarding windage. I would not mind to have one. The space is more than enough for me and I love the performance and style:


But I admit most don't buy cats for the performance but mostly for the interior space.
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Old 05-12-2014, 17:57   #648
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Re: The Yard Guys

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They are cats, who cares?
Don't tell me you also don't like cats It seems your tastes in boats are quite narrow
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Old 05-12-2014, 18:44   #649
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Don't tell me you also don't like cats It seems your tastes in boats are quite narrow
I don't know if they are THAT narrow... on the appropriate length I think 14' would be OK.
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Old 05-12-2014, 21:38   #650
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
Modern Lagoon
Attachment 93028
And dated LeRouge
Attachment 93029
Ok I finished. Obviously I'm a fan of the Lerouge designs and consider the Lagoons as actually looking much more dated than they are. I will say that we are moored next to an older Lagoon 410 and it is a beautiful boat. They got the lines right on that one!


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I think Lerounge is a great cat designer. Unfortunately to me this vessel is to me an impractical design for the tropics. Seems to be missing shade and ventilation in the design concept for me. I appreciate you view of their looks and one certainly would not buy a lagoon for their looks. I agree the older Lagoons are different and look good.
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Old 05-12-2014, 21:58   #651
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Re: The Yard Guys

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There is not a right cruising cat as there is not a right cruising monohul, some are performance cats and monohulls, others are what is called main market cats and monohulls. They are all perfect for some cruiser....but not the same one for each type.

Even among performance cats there are ones that compromise more performance regarding interior space than others. The perfect multihul or monohul in what regards cruising depends on what importance you give to sailing pleasure regarding cruising and among the ones that like sailing pleasure I believe that there is not a single one that would not like to out sail any boat that appears on the horizon.

Regarding sailing boats windage is always detrimental to performance and more on a cruising cat because by design they have more windage than a monohull. If you look at the designs you have posted you will see that the sides of the cabin are slightly rounded and inclined to diminish windage, much more than on that VPLP design I posted. The Tan 66 is a less sportive boat than the Outremer and that is translated also on a bigger windage.

Regarding Tony Grainger I like particularly his last designs on multihulls. These fast cruisers have a very low windage. I love them, just beautiful.



here you have a more sportive cat, the new Sig 60



You can notice that it has less windage than any of the boats you posted, but not less than the very sportive Philocat that is making a hell of an ARC.

It has all to do with the compromises you accept regarding less sail performance and more interior space. windage, is always a negative factor in what regards performance

Here you have a Sig 45 one of the cats that compromise less regarding windage. I would not mind to have one. The space is more than enough for me and I love the performance and style:


But I admit most don't buy cats for the performance but mostly for the interior space.
This is exacty what I has been saying. Many of the top designers have developed their designs with vertical windows without compromising windage but delivering improved liveability.

Tony Graingers new designs have that vertical windows as does the Sig 60 and the Outremer. There are others and it seems to be the trend.

Raku 54 - Grainger Designs Performance Multihull Yachts

If one forgets racing they are very livable and practical designs which will perform well.

cheers
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:21   #652
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Re: The Yard Guys

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This is exacty what I has been saying. Many of the top designers have developed their designs with vertical windows without compromising windage but delivering improved liveability.
..
Here we agree. Vertical windows does not compromise windage, in fact they increase windage.

What they compromise is performance and seaworthiness, not much if they are relatively small regarding the total windage, but some. The problem regarding windage is not windows but vertical surfaces, namely cabin surfaces and the freeboard. The higher the surfaces are (cabins) worse the effect. There is one exception that is the back of the cabin where a large flat surface represents no problem at all.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:59   #653
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Re: The Yard Guys

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There is one exception that is the back of the cabin where a large flat surface represents no problem at all.

If you want to minimise drag the shape of the trailing edge of a structure is far more important than most people realise.

A flat surface on the downwind side will cause immediate flow separation and considerable aerodynamic drag.

If you look at these two shapes most would assume the top structure with its long tapered nose cone would have less drag than the bottom shape. Not only is it the other way around the bottom structure has over 6x less drag than the top structure (with the airflow coming from the left)

A long tapered trailing edge structure causes far less drag than than an abrupt finish. A large flat surface at the back of cabin causes a lot of drag, but there has to be a way for those pesky humans to get inside
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:40   #654
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Re: The Yard Guys

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If you want to minimise drag the shape of the trailing edge of a structure is far more important than most people realise.

A flat surface on the downwind side will cause immediate flow separation and considerable aerodynamic drag.

If you look at these two shapes most would assume the top structure with its long tapered nose cone would have less drag than the bottom shape. Not only is it the other way around the bottom structure has over 6x less drag than the top structure (with the airflow coming from the left)

A long tapered trailing edge structure causes far less drag than than an abrupt finish. A large flat surface at the back of cabin causes a lot of drag, but there has to be a way for those pesky humans to get inside
The importance of what you say as to do mainly with objects travelling at much bigger speeds than a sailboat travels. On a sailboat windage is particularize prejudicial in what regards side big surfaces that increases the lateral drift of the boat and are exposed to breaking waves, and can contribute for a capsize. The frontal surface is important too, but less exposed to waves since the bow is far away and offer protection. The Back panel is the one where being verticall detracts less on the performance or seaworthiness of a cat and that's why even on very fats performance cats they are vertical and big when all the other surfaces are rounded or have a little surface.
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:39   #655
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Re: The Yard Guys

A minor point as to pilot houses and windage: at least on my boat, as soon as about 10-15 degrees of heel is reached, the house is in the lee of the hull on the high side, which dramatically reduces windage. Wide side decks help with this. It's more of an issue at anchor than while sailing. Only the hull is presented to the wind when reaching or sailing upwind, and obviously downwind it doesn't matter.
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Old 06-12-2014, 09:18   #656
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Re: The Yard Guys

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A minor point as to pilot houses and windage: at least on my boat, as soon as about 10-15 degrees of heel is reached, the house is in the lee of the hull on the high side, which dramatically reduces windage. Wide side decks help with this. It's more of an issue at anchor than while sailing. Only the hull is presented to the wind when reaching or sailing upwind, and obviously downwind it doesn't matter.
Yes, that is an advantage regarding a vertical wall on a catamaran: You will have a wall with 10º to 15º of inclinations (when the boat is heeled) that even with less windage than a vertical wall still represents a huge windage. If we were talking about a 60º of heel then I would agree with you and that windage would have been greatly reduced....but boats are not made to sail with 60º of heel.
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Old 06-12-2014, 16:55   #657
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Re: The Yard Guys

I'm on my pimpin', blue-water Hunter 40 sipping scotch and fixing the Yard Bonehead fiasco in my bilge.

Quick question for the real Yard Guys - how hard is it to pull a new radar cable through the deck-stepped mast?
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Old 06-12-2014, 16:58   #658
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I'm on my pimpin', blue-water Hunter 40 sipping scotch and fixing the Yard Bonehead fiasco in my bilge.

Quick question for the real Yard Guys - how hard is it to pull a new radar cable through the deck-stepped mast?

Its very easy, i use a guide, kind of strong thin line, you want to pull the new wire from the radar to the inside of the boat or just from the deck to inside???
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Old 06-12-2014, 17:32   #659
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Its very easy, i use a guide, kind of strong thin line, you want to pull the new wire from the radar to the inside of the boat or just from the deck to inside???
Actually from inside-out to the radar (up the mast - not down). The connector on the radar end is pretty small (maybe 1/2"). The display end is maybe 1". And I don't want to open the mast any more than necessary.

So maybe drop a guide line down?

(PS - Everyone, please take note. This is how real sailors do things. We punch eachother in the mouth over and over in a debate - then help each other when it's needed. If you can't do this - you're not a sailor.)
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Old 06-12-2014, 17:52   #660
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Actually from inside-out to the radar (up the mast - not down). The connector on the radar end is pretty small (maybe 1/2"). The display end is maybe 1". And I don't want to open the mast any more than necessary.

So maybe drop a guide line down?

(PS - Everyone, please take note. This is how real sailors do things. We punch eachother in the mouth over and over in a debate - then help each other when it's needed. If you can't do this - you're not a sailor.)
So i see you want to pass the wire with the end conectors? there is a deck swan neck pipe style in the deck? or the wires pass trough the compresión post?

Anyway if you have a deck gland or swan pipe style, pass a line from the gland or pipe to the inside , take the end conector and try to squeze , make a form arrow, a fine end point entry, use tape, i use a sail needle to stitch the end with the guide line but since you have your end wire with conector is up to you , stitch or make a strong knot in the end with the guide , tape it , fine nor thick, and we use a special liquid to coat the end wire but shoap for dishes work to, Joy hehe...

If you success, next step is to pass the wire from the deck to the opening at the top radar array antena , i guess you have a small window at the base of the mast for wires, and i hope you have a guide allready there?

Your mast have Pvc internal pipes for wiring? if yes and the pipes are filled with wires , i guess you need to disconect the conector , i recommend sticht the end with the guide and pull the wire from the top , if there is no pipes for wiring, be sure your internal halyards are tight , and be sure the guide is not mesed with the halyards, with the wire end at the top , make a 8 knot figure and use tie wraps to hold in place tight to the radar bracket. Haaa if you pass the wire out of the pipe wiring , welcome to have a noisy mast day and night....Good luck..
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