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Old 04-12-2014, 09:57   #616
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And i never think or say a 3 inches thick hull is good or overkill.
You need them to be thicker?

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Old 04-12-2014, 10:26   #617
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Re: The Yard Guys

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... I also appreciate owning & sailing a fine example from an era of American yacht building that has almost disappeared.

For me, there's more to owning a yacht than being able to talk about how little you may have paid for it or how "fast" it goes. ..

But hey, this is just me. To each his own!
Nice post and I appreciate you not being "insulted"with my post. It was not my intention but I know that others would.

Yes, it is about it and I understand it perfectly, I love great old cars and old boats, some are really beautiful and sailing or driving them give a pleasure different then one of sailing or driving a more efficient sailboat or car and as you say, if in good condition they will do the same thing as the more modern ones even if slowly.

Regarding having pleasure with old boats, I sailed from some years one much older than yours, a eighty years old one but whose design is centuries old and some of my best memories and sail moments take place on that boat, like being saluted by warships and lifesaving boats in stormy seas while sailing safely and fast or having all guys on an anchorage running for their photo cameras when I arrived with full canvas. I have to say that even if I sail now a nice boat I don't have that effect anymore Regarding coastal cruising I could sail anywhere with that boat and do the same as boats that costed 20 times more, living in a Spartan way, I have to say, with my wife and believe it or not, sometimes with a friend too.



Regarding your boat I like particularly the late aft cockpit version, if at the coast of a smaller interior. A very nice boat from the 70/80s, one that today may be considered a classic.


That today we could compare with a Moody 45 in what regards classic style and mass production boats. I believe it would be the style of modern boat you would like. I like them:
Moody 45 Classic - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:41   #618
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
..
For Pólux , its clear its more interested in speed and those dizzy numbers
B/D ratio AVS, and more ratios, something i dont give a crap, sincerely im ok with a decent AVS and a sturdy hull, rig, rudder and keel, even if is a Beneteau. I let those ratios and speed comparisons for the racing dudes.
Its kinda black and White this dude , we are technicolor.. If speed is the only thing important and those dam ratios then do yourself a favor and take a jet.

Cruising its something else...

...
No, I am interested in contemporary state of the art design, not only in what regards performance sailing boats but all types of sailingboats. It is not only about speed but about stability, seaworthiness, quantity and quality of the interior space...and modern building techniques and materials.
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:02   #619
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Cool 1/2 hour video of an old Ericson 32 doing a solo to Hawaii and back. The owner puts on a pretty funny performance at just before the 8 minute mark, but it is worth watching the whole thing.

Singlehanded Cruising on Vimeo
Taht's a nice movie and a great old boat, one that the owners of "true bluewater sailboats" at the time the boat was new, called a racing boat

Regarding having one and the costs of having it in good shape:

"I regularly receive emails from prospective Ericson 32 buyers who ask, "what problems should I look out for in this boat?" My response is that Ericsons will suffer the ills of any 15 to 30 year old sailboat...Leaks and delamination. Like most boats, Ericsons are balsa cored, with fiberglass above the balsa forming the deck, and below forming the overhead. If freshwater leaks around windows and hardware are allowed to persist, the balsa core gets wet, rots, and pulls away from the fiberglass. The deck becomes crunchy, springy, cracked, weak, and eventually hollow. There are a variety of ways to fix this depending on where in the boat it occurs, but if the problem is really bad it can cost the value of the boat to properly repair.

Deck-stepped masts may require reinforcement at the deck, as evidenced by cracking in the cabin overhead between the head and the main salon. Ericson published a one-pager on what needs to be done to reinforce this area, provided here by Meticulous Recordkeeper Paul Russotto. It's a repair probably best left to a yard, but it's not particularly difficult with the proper tools.
Some E32s do not have backing plates underneath the stanchions.Every boat needs these, because stanchions and other deck hardware held in place with bolts and washers will flex the deck, encourage leaks, and may not be strong enough.
Even though there should not be much tension on the aft lower shrouds, their backing plates as provided by the factory may not be large enough. They should be at least the size of a playing card and perhaps as large as a CD jewel case.
Internally ballasted keels may accumulate water if the boat has been run hard aground and not properly fixed. That's not to say the water ends up in the bilge or in the cabin--generally it stays in the keel and drips out when the boat is hauled. If it freezes, however, it can cause structural damage. A proper repair is probably easier than replacing the keelbolts on a more modern boat.

A properly maintained Atomic Four engine, in my opinion, is not a drawback unless you plan to do bluewater cruising and need the range of a diesel.

Performancewise, I think most other owners would agree that the Ericson 32 performs like any medium-displacement fin-keeled, spade-ruddered sailboat, which is to say that it's nimble and reasonably fast given the interior space and accommodations. Properly trimmed you'll easily motor at 5.5 knots and pull 6.5 or 7 knots on a beam reach in a good breeze with flat seas, maybe a little better with a spinnaker up if well-sailed. "

Ericson 32 Homepage

Regarding a small modern boat designed with long range cruising in mind we could look at the brand new RM1070, the older RM1060 or the even older RM1050 that still is a modern boat. Here some guys coming back from Azores with one (RM 1050), sailing fast with (sometimes) winds over 30K.

I cannot post direct links to the posts on my blog, even if relevant, but the last post is about the latest version of this boat, some posts back you have another one about it, mostly about the hull and the new swing keel. This boat is one of the good examples of mass production boats made with long range crusing in mind, a very good one, tested in many Atlantic crossings (I mean the previous versions).
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:44   #620
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Taht's a nice movie and a great old boat, one that the owners of "true bluewater sailboats" at the time the boat was new, called a racing boat

Regarding having one and the costs of having it in good shape:

...............................
Regarding a small modern boat designed with long range cruising in mind we could look at the brand new RM1070, the older RM1060 or the even older RM1050 that still is a modern boat. Here some guys coming back from Azores with one (RM 1050), sailing fast with (sometimes) winds over 30K.

I cannot post direct links to the posts on my blog, even if relevant, but the last post is about the latest version of this boat, some posts back you have another one about it, mostly about the hull and the new swing keel. This boat is one of the good examples of mass production boats made with long range crusing in mind, a very good one, tested in many Atlantic crossings (I mean the previous versions).
I guess some of us have trouble wrapping our heads around the very non-traditional aspects, especially the interiors. I have no doubt the boat will do what it is meant to, but it just does not speak to me at all. Probably fun to sail though.



Epoxy over plywood?

Why would they do that?
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Old 04-12-2014, 13:20   #621
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I guess some of us have trouble wrapping our heads around the very non-traditional aspects, especially the interiors. I have no doubt the boat will do what it is meant to, but it just does not speak to me at all. Probably fun to sail though.



Epoxy over plywood?

Why would they do that?
Epoxy to make it waterproof, plywood because it is one of the toughest materials around. They are working with those materials since the beginning in 1989. They also use a steel structure for the keel. On a very competitive market where that kind of boats (that are necessarily more expensive than Beneteaus and the lot) they have been increasing steadily sales. Now they are a medium sized shipyard with hundreds of produced boats and are beginning to sell a lot out of France. I visited the shipyard about 10 years ago. Nice people nice boats.
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Old 04-12-2014, 13:38   #622
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Epoxy to make it waterproof, plywood because it is one of the toughest materials around. They are working with those materials since the beginning in 1989. They also use a steel structure for the keel. On a very competitive market where that kind of boats (that are necessarily more expensive than Beneteaus and the lot) they have been increasing steadily sales. Now they are a medium sized shipyard with hundreds of produced boats and are beginning to sell a lot out of France. I visited the shipyard about 10 years ago. Nice people nice boats.
I'll reserve my judgement on epoxy over plywood... I can visualize all sorts of problems with that down the road.

However, I did see their steel structure for the keel and thought that was a great move, not something one regularly sees. Think Bene might learn from that?
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Old 04-12-2014, 15:04   #623
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Re: The Yard Guys

Built with plywood epoxy, RM hulls are lighter and more rigid than polyester boats. This allows them to achieve not only better nautical performances but also to have a more durable hull.
On an RM Yacht there is no risk of osmosis or delamination

No doubt they are build it well, no osmosis or delamination, i will say rot and corroded Steel plates in the long run.

This is Star Shappire, 35 meters in lenght build by Bilgin Yachts in Istambul Turkey , made in Wood and epoxy, yes you read right, Wood and Epoxy, i work for 2 weeks helping the Enginer to put in order few things in the engines room, Hidraulic truster , new Blowers, etc.. Engine beds are Steel plates trough bolted to masive Wood stringers, rusting, and few áreas in the hull starting to feel soft, ,Rot... so i dont touch a Ply boat with a barge pole....
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Old 04-12-2014, 15:45   #624
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Re: The Yard Guys

Speaking of Boat Yard problems.. I had my boat in to have the diesel engine rebuilt. The yard worker was supposed to prepare everything so the crane could haul out the engine . When I got to the boat on the weekend I found that he had completely disassembled my autopilot including the head unit. It was down to springs and gears and circuit boards. When I asked what was going on he said that he just "wanted to see how it worked". I complained to the yard manager and they said don't worry he doesn't work here anymore. I never did get the unit working again and I never got the yard to admit it was their fault. Lesson learned. You need to be there when any work is done on your boat or better still do it yourself.
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Old 04-12-2014, 15:49   #625
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I'll reserve my judgement on epoxy over plywood... I can visualize all sorts of problems with that down the road.

..
I am not sure if you understood. It is not a marine plywood hull with glass and epoxy over it. It is plywood saturated with epoxy. the epoxy enters the wood cells and makes it waterproof.



no problems in more than 20 years. That's one of the reasons why the boats sell so well and have a high resale value.

Regarding the interior you posted, the new one is a lot better with a closed front cabin. It looks big and nice for a 35ft boat









I don't know if you know François Gabart, the wonder kid that won the last Vendee Globe and the last Route du Rhum, he bought the smaller model for sailing as his personal cruising boat, the RM 890. I guess that one knows something about boats:

RM 890 : nouvelle génération express !
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Old 04-12-2014, 17:05   #626
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Re: The Yard Guys

Polux,

Are you saying that this is some kind of fancy plywood that is manufactured with epoxy instead of phenolic glue?

If not, I'd be curious to see a cut away of how far it penetrates. Epoxy doesn't normally wick past the first glue line when applied as a surface coat.


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Old 04-12-2014, 17:23   #627
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Why do you say that? One thing is practical needs, regarding space, easiness of build and interior high, other is what works better regarding less windage and the dissipation of energy when a breaking wave hits the superstructure. Regarding that a hull like the one of the Philocat is evidently better, it has nothing to do with being out of date. All boats are a compromise, Lagoons compromise much more regarding windage, versus interior space and living convenience than Outemer and that Philocat compromises even less in what regards Outremer.

Probably it is because it is a cat that compromises little regarding sail efficiency and safety that on the ARC is blowing away all much bigger Outremer. Outdated?
Who cares about picking a vessel because it can blow away another design. No doubt the Philocat priority is speed first. Perhaps there was a racing crew on the Philocat and a family on the Outremer. In its design for tropic living it is outdated.

No issues with the Lagoon compromises but many of the newer cat designs are tending to verticle windows. Factors such as hull/bow design, centralisation of weight bow height and mast position all have an impact on breaking waves impacting on the superstructure.

The designers have dealt with the issue of verticle windows with other aspects of their design.

The Philocat is typical of many of Erik Larounge designs(all pretty much look the same) more suited to european/med sailing rather than living and cruising than the real tropics.

The photos I showed of verticle windows in the Outremer and Machonnacy (a schonning design) is indicative of the trend by some of the top cat designers. M & M have also been tending to more verticle windows. What about the verticle windows/doors in all the foward cockpit designs including Gunboat.
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Old 04-12-2014, 17:25   #628
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Polux,

Are you saying that this is some kind of fancy plywood that is manufactured with epoxy instead of phenolic glue?

If not, I'd be curious to see a cut away of how far it penetrates. Epoxy doesn't normally wick past the first glue line when applied as a surface coat.


Zach
No, it's good grade marine plywood and you are right, it will not pass the first glue line but having the first line saturated with epoxy, internally and externally makes it waterproof. They offer also as an option a kevlar protection. As I said they had made hundreds of boats this way since 1989 and they don't have problems. Look at the ressale value of old boats and you are going to see that it is not only very high as they are sold quickly.
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Old 04-12-2014, 17:33   #629
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Zach View Post
Polux,

Are you saying that this is some kind of fancy plywood that is manufactured with epoxy instead of phenolic glue?

If not, I'd be curious to see a cut away of how far it penetrates. Epoxy doesn't normally wick past the first glue line when applied as a surface coat.


Zach
Isn't Polux talking about the so-called "cold-molded epoxy" method? It's been around for awhile, and reputed to be as good as it gets. It combines the strength, stiffness, and lightweight of wood, but the infused epoxy eliminates rot, the biggest downside to wooden boats. Very expensive, and before Polux's example I've only known it to be done on a custom basis.
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Old 04-12-2014, 17:46   #630
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Isn't Polux talking about the so-called "cold-molded epoxy" method? It's been around for awhile, and reputed to be as good as it gets. It combines the strength, stiffness, and lightweight of wood, but the infused epoxy eliminates rot, the biggest downside to wooden boats. Very expensive, and before Polux's example I've only known it to be done on a custom basis.
No, it is as I said: the boats are made of marine plywood saturated with epoxy and can have optionally a stratified kevlar cover over it.



If you read French you can have more information on the owners forum:

Forums de l'Association des Voiliers RM / Stratification de la coque
Forums de l'Association des Voiliers RM

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