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Old 13-11-2014, 15:14   #31
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Also I read that stronger ss is more prone to rust and is more brittle. While less prone to rust ss is more elastic.
Look at the duplex stainless series, like 2205. Much stronger than the 300 series, Much more corrosion resistant, HIGHLY magnetic. And not that much more expensive for applications like rudder posts, keel bolts or chain plates.

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Old 13-11-2014, 15:22   #32
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Re: The Yard Guys

I have learned a lot with the owner of the shipyard were my boat is in Italy. I really enjoy participating and doing a great part of the maintenance of my boat under their supervision. The guy works for Comet, as after sales support and maintenance and is also a naval expert that does a huge number of expertise by year all around the med.

By the way, he says that jeanneau is better than Oceanis for offshore work
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Old 13-11-2014, 16:39   #33
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Could be a coincedence, , this morning im called to see some problems in a Beneteau, for the incredulous about Plexus, check it out

First 3 pictures show the preparation for cutting the grid liner in the starboard aft cabin, the surveyor found cracks in the bottom in this área , after ground the gelcoat we see the cracks run deep in the laminate, im not allowed to take pictures from the outside, dirty job...


The next 3 pictures show a fillet of plexus unbonded from the 2 main bulkhead , the one dividing the salón from the cabins, owner reported in a starboard tack sailing to weather , 3 cabinets doors get open and dont close anymore , so i run straight with my flashlight in the cave and found this, i grab the tip of a flat screwdiver and dig it in the crack., the repair call for real fiberglass in the sides of the bulkhead...

This is the most interesting photo to me:



It looks like the Plexus pulled the top coat away from the underlying FG surface. The way I've seen Plexus described in the marketing materials and the reports I've been able to dig up - it describes the bond as superior to tabbing because it is essentially "chemically welds" the two surfaces.

BUT, for you guys that know about this stuff, even if true, unless the Plexus bonds deeper than that top, thin, top coat layer - especially with a smaller surface area than tabbing - it seems this outcome could be pretty much expected.

No?
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Old 13-11-2014, 17:18   #34
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I have learned a lot with the owner of the shipyard were my boat is in Italy. I really enjoy participating and doing a great part of the maintenance of my boat under their supervision. The guy works for Comet, as after sales support and maintenance and is also a naval expert that does a huge number of expertise by year all around the med.

By the way, he says that jeanneau is better than Oceanis for offshore work
I almost bought a Comar's Comet 910. Very well built and comfortable boat. Never heard of them before I looked at that one a few years back. But a 36 footer came along for not much more than that Comet 910. I'm still debating if I did the right thing in passing up on that Comet as a 36 footer is a chore to sail singlehanded.
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Old 13-11-2014, 17:19   #35
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Look at the duplex stainless series, like 2205. Much stronger than the 300 series, Much more corrosion resistant, HIGHLY magnetic. And not that much more expensive for applications like rudder posts, keel bolts or chain plates.

Jim
Thanks Jim, I'll look into it.

That's what I like about this forum - there is always that extra room for one's learning curve.
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Old 13-11-2014, 19:03   #36
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Kinda related to the topic.

Where I keep the boat for the winter the yard owner who is also a hauler junks boats selling parts, lead, etc. So over the past 10 years I got to see a lot of boats being junked. The saddest part is that most of the boats, about 70-80% are in still decent condition and just need good cleaning and minor repairs to be in sailaway condition. This is the proverbial "throwing away a car because the ashtray is full". Wish I kept a log with details of their junked boats. Would make an interesting review piece.

Also, I think I mentioned it in a thread about platforms, after I installed a swimming platform at the end of the season I noticed some supposedly SS bolts, which were WM bought and most likely "made in China" variety, started to bleed rust. I mentioned this to my boatbuilder buddy who helped me to make and install the platform. He traced the reason as to why some bolts did not rust to the fact that we misplaced some of the WM bought bolts and used old SS bolts from the yard which obviously were US made and still good years after their manufacture. So from that time on I prefer using bolts which I know for sure are SS even if they're old and were off some junked boat. I know some purists will rag on me for using 30 year old ss bolts but I think they're still better choice than the chinese made junk sold at exhobirant prices at WM. And I now always use a magnet when picking out the bolts of doubtful provenance.
Real Yard Guys will know that SS will corrode and fail when not allowed to skin over with an oxide layer. Covering your stainless with a nice protective layer of resin is probably what caused your bolts to fail, not China. And while I'm at it, Real Admins will not allow oversized photos to be posted in their forums. They make the rest of the posts unreadable.
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Old 13-11-2014, 19:40   #37
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Real Admins will not allow oversized photos to be posted in their forums. They make the rest of the posts unreadable.
I think there is oversized and then OVERSIZED. I'm not having problems in this thread with my widescreen, but yeah I hate when the photos go outside the margins. But I'd rather have that problem than photo limiting. Photo limiting really sucks.
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Old 13-11-2014, 20:19   #38
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Re: The Yard Guys

Great thread. Please keep the pictures coming. This stuff is fascinating.
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Old 13-11-2014, 20:38   #39
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Re: The Yard Guys

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And while I'm at it, Real Admins will not allow oversized photos to be posted in their forums. They make the rest of the posts unreadable.

User CP - Setting & Options - Edit Options

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Images wider than this width will be resized. Enter 0 to allow all widths, or leave the field empty to use the default value of 520.

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Old 13-11-2014, 23:31   #40
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
User CP - Setting & Options - Edit Options

Scroll down to "Thread display Option"

Set values under :

"This forum automatically resizes images which are too large. Please choose here how you would like to view the enlarged images.

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Images wider than this width will be resized. Enter 0 to allow all widths, or leave the field empty to use the default value of 520.

Images taller than this height will be resized. Enter 0 to allow all heights, or leave the field empty to use the default value of 0."
Thanks StuM! Photos are important, to be sure. Apparently your defaults work differently from mine. Even though my defaults are the 'empty 520', my margins and text columns still go way out to the right whenever someone posts an oversized photo. IMHO the photo should be limited to the client's view, not to some control panel setting. Many of us come here using more than one browser.

Back to boats: Stainless steel is only stainless when it is exposed to the atmosphere. Cover it over, and it can lose its protective oxide coating. When this happens, the part will be subject to corrosion. This is not a question of quality. It is a merely a failure to understand the nature of "stainless" steel.

Real Yard Guys can explain this and a lot of other stuff better than I can, if you'll ask them.
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Old 14-11-2014, 00:28   #41
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Re: The Yard Guys

Now I get the part about not covering the ss and importance of letting it breathe. And I don't think they were covered except for 5200 used to seal the transom holes where the bolts were inserted. And if the 5200 were the culprit how come not all bolts are bleeding rust? Not to mention other places on the boat where 5200 was used with the ss bolts and no rust bled out?
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Old 14-11-2014, 05:32   #42
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Re: The Yard Guys

I would like to correct an information I had given on the other thread regarding mass production boats that have the bulkheads laminated; most have: Hanse, Dehler, Elan, Salona, all have them but Bavaria uses also bonded bulkheads and it seems laminated over (depending on the model?) being the main bulkhead double laminated.

"The focus is on a stable bulkhead, which also manages the forces acting on a Bavaria CRUISER 41. Precisely fitted into the hull to the nearest millimetre, it is securely glued to the hull across a large area. .. In addition to the stable hull structure, a massive main bulkhead that is laminated to the hull ensures ultimate rigidity. For protection in the event of frontal collisions, every CRUISER has a collision bulkhead."
BAVARIA Yachtbau - CRUISER 41

"The new (Bavaria) Cruiser range has larger framing, glassed into the hull with generous glass tabbing. Bulkheads are similarly tabbed into the frames and deck-head making for a very stiff and strong yacht. The increased internal framing combined with the Cruiser range’s larger beams, topsides, keels and mast sections obviously generate extra displacemet"
Sailing Yacht Management Team - Bavaria Management

Anyway regarding bonding having to do with cheaper boats it is funny that the cheapest of them all, by far, the Varianta, has laminated bulkheads. I had posted about the test they are talking about on my blog, but I find out revealing these statements, of course, taken with a grain of salt, since they are made by an ex Hanse Dealer (Hanse makes the Varianta) and now sells the Varianta on the US:

Letter to the Editor about a"Yachting Monthly" review
by Martin van Breems
Yachting World just did a review of the VAr 37 (or Varianta 37) compared to the Bavaria and Jeanneau 37. ..You can see they did not think so much of the VAr 37 until they sailed her, and from the looks of it, she clearly outsailed other 2 (as I would expect!).
...
I was for many years the US importer for Contest Yachts from Holland, and have visited over 50 boatyards. I was the Metro NY Hanse dealer for 6 years to 2012, and have sailed my 2006 Hanse 400 over 30,000 offshore miles with 6 trips to the Caribbean and back. I also make sailboat hardware (the Dutchman Flaking System and Boom Brake etc) and run the largest Sailing School in CT. I have many offshore passages and races to my credit, including the 2000 Ostar, when I was the only American to finish. After inspecting the Varianta’s in production at the Hanse Group Yard in January 2014, I signed on to be the US Agent for this line (VArYachts.com)

From the start, the reviewers were critical of the Varianta. “The design is old and consequently she looks dated… is a good example. The design is from 2006 which is surely not old. How exactly has the design for a family racer cruiser advanced since then? Are hard chines or portlights in the hull really that important vs things like an excellent design, lots of sail area, and a high end rudder bearing system? Furthermore, it’s hard to find someone who thinks she looks dated. ........
You noted that she was “built to a good standard, with frames and bulkheads laminated in”. .... The Varianta has more tabbed or laminated in bulkheads than the other boats in the test with the largest keel bolts, a stronger structure, etc. which contributes to her solid feeling and performance, even when sailing much faster than the other boats, as she did. The other boats used cheaper, glued in grids and bulkheads. The Varianta 37 has six 33 mm diameter keel bolts, one 30 mm bolts and one 24 mm bolt. These keel bolts are over 80% larger than similar boats. I would think your readers would appreciate knowing which boats have oversized keel connections, given some recent and not so recent incidents."


Yachting Monthly review | VAr Yachts
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Old 14-11-2014, 08:10   #43
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Yeah, sure but I'd rather be sailing than working overtime to afford "using a good source".
If you look at McMaster prices, I think you will be shocked at how affordable they are.... Delivery is usually next day, no extra charge and cheap... as they have warehouses everywhere and UPS clout...
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Old 14-11-2014, 09:59   #44
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I would like to correct an information I had given on the other thread regarding mass production boats that have the bulkheads laminated; most have: Hanse, Dehler, Elan, Salona, all have them but Bavaria uses also bonded bulkheads and it seems laminated over (depending on the model?) being the main bulkhead double laminated.

"The focus is on a stable bulkhead, which also manages the forces acting on a Bavaria CRUISER 41. Precisely fitted into the hull to the nearest millimetre, it is securely glued to the hull across a large area. .. In addition to the stable hull structure, a massive main bulkhead that is laminated to the hull ensures ultimate rigidity. For protection in the event of frontal collisions, every CRUISER has a collision bulkhead."
BAVARIA Yachtbau - CRUISER 41

"The new (Bavaria) Cruiser range has larger framing, glassed into the hull with generous glass tabbing. Bulkheads are similarly tabbed into the frames and deck-head making for a very stiff and strong yacht. The increased internal framing combined with the Cruiser range’s larger beams, topsides, keels and mast sections obviously generate extra displacemet"
Sailing Yacht Management Team - Bavaria Management

Anyway regarding bonding having to do with cheaper boats it is funny that the cheapest of them all, by far, the Varianta, has laminated bulkheads. I had posted about the test they are talking about on my blog, but I find out revealing these statements, of course, taken with a grain of salt, since they are made by an ex Hanse Dealer (Hanse makes the Varianta) and now sells the Varianta on the US:

Letter to the Editor about a"Yachting Monthly" review
by Martin van Breems
Yachting World just did a review of the VAr 37 (or Varianta 37) compared to the Bavaria and Jeanneau 37. ..You can see they did not think so much of the VAr 37 until they sailed her, and from the looks of it, she clearly outsailed other 2 (as I would expect!).
...
I was for many years the US importer for Contest Yachts from Holland, and have visited over 50 boatyards. I was the Metro NY Hanse dealer for 6 years to 2012, and have sailed my 2006 Hanse 400 over 30,000 offshore miles with 6 trips to the Caribbean and back. I also make sailboat hardware (the Dutchman Flaking System and Boom Brake etc) and run the largest Sailing School in CT. I have many offshore passages and races to my credit, including the 2000 Ostar, when I was the only American to finish. After inspecting the Varianta’s in production at the Hanse Group Yard in January 2014, I signed on to be the US Agent for this line (VArYachts.com)

From the start, the reviewers were critical of the Varianta. “The design is old and consequently she looks dated… is a good example. The design is from 2006 which is surely not old. How exactly has the design for a family racer cruiser advanced since then? Are hard chines or portlights in the hull really that important vs things like an excellent design, lots of sail area, and a high end rudder bearing system? Furthermore, it’s hard to find someone who thinks she looks dated. ........
You noted that she was “built to a good standard, with frames and bulkheads laminated in”. .... The Varianta has more tabbed or laminated in bulkheads than the other boats in the test with the largest keel bolts, a stronger structure, etc. which contributes to her solid feeling and performance, even when sailing much faster than the other boats, as she did. The other boats used cheaper, glued in grids and bulkheads. The Varianta 37 has six 33 mm diameter keel bolts, one 30 mm bolts and one 24 mm bolt. These keel bolts are over 80% larger than similar boats. I would think your readers would appreciate knowing which boats have oversized keel connections, given some recent and not so recent incidents."


Yachting Monthly review | VAr Yachts
Hats off to Bavaria!
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Old 14-11-2014, 10:15   #45
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Now I get the part about not covering the ss and importance of letting it breathe. And I don't think they were covered except for 5200 used to seal the transom holes where the bolts were inserted. And if the 5200 were the culprit how come not all bolts are bleeding rust? Not to mention other places on the boat where 5200 was used with the ss bolts and no rust bled out?
That portion of the bolts covered by 5200... Ya that section is a problem.

Personally I have made the switch to titanium. It is a little more expensive, but not terrible, and I don't have to worry about it anymore.

The trick is to not shop at McMaster, instead go directly to Allied Titanium and order from them. McMaster is taking a 1000% markup up on their titanium bits. It really isn't that it's that much more expensive at the wholesale level, it's that retailers are banking on its perceived cost to jack prices thru the roof. If you buy in moderate sizes titanium bits cost about 15% more than good quality 316.
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