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Old 01-12-2014, 15:26   #406
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Dont make me laugh please!! its the entrance door in a B38 or a bavaria 33 watertight?? and they are rated A. ?
I believe you are talking about this boat with the big glass all around and a big door on the side. If you cannot see the risks that all that represent and not only with the boat inverted you are going down on my consideration





a Bavaria 38 inverted will not let any significant water enter by the small opening that constitutes the "door" , if closed, while on this one all big prominent superstructure risks to be ripped off, glass broken and so on. I would hate to be on one of those Nauticats with waves breaking against all that glass. It sure seems a badly designed boat to me, in what regards offshore sailing. Compare with the Bavaria 38:

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Old 01-12-2014, 15:27   #407
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I guess I would ask if a 38 foot Oyster would have room for a generator or a watermaker?

My 40 Jeanneau has room in the storage area for a genrator and I can also fit a watermaker.

I won't be fitting a generator since I'll go with solar.

A boat can be rated for class "A", ocean voyaging, but obviously it won't be fitted for that stock off the line (very, very few boats are).

Do you need a watermaker to go ocean cruising? Quite a few extremely experienced circumnavigators (Beth and Evans come to mind) have neither a generator nor a watermaker and seem to be able to visit virtually any place on the planet without them.

Rain Catchment systems work well. Solar is quite capable of charging your batteries these days (cut out some of the energy hogs and you don't need much electricity).

Would I take a 38 footer with 8 persons across the pond - no. But that doesn't mean it can't be done.

I know several boat types 42 feet that have berths for 12 - would I do that - no

I think you might have to divorce the "8" from the "A"

my 2 cents - The opinion is worth what you paid for it.


As far i know Oyster dont make any 38, but Island Packet yes, and there is room for a AC genset, sure is not so important, my point is, the B38 come from Factory very basic, i mean i have a couple of spanish friends doing a TW in a Wauquiez Ampithrite 43 , they have a long watermaker and big tanks making the Wuaquiez self sufficient ,,, they spend 1 full month visiting the wild side of the pacific, places with no fueld docks or where to get fresh wáter .


I think 2.5 gallons for person per day is ok in my book, or even 2 gallons , 4 persons are using 8 gallons per day lets say, thats 10 days of wáter in the b38, with fresh wáter botles packs placed i dont know but placed somewhere maybe you can reach 15 days or 20,, or even less if the girls want to take the dam long showers! for me is not enough.. just me ,,sure others can use the wáter better than me . so a watermaker is a nice invention for long days at sea or in remote places.

If is necesary? no, like you say Beth and Evans sail without one , they have space in the boat to fit one, maybe, the B38 no. I dont have a genset but i have the space to fit one, i have space to fit extra batteries, i have space to fill lockers with gear, ropes, blocks , fenders, even the outboard engine, and i have space to place a second or triple anchor just in case.

After all its a cruising boat...
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Old 01-12-2014, 15:30   #408
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe you are talking about this boat with the big glass all around and a big door on the side. If you cannot see the risks that all that represent and not only with the boat inverted you are going down on my consideration





a Bavaria 38 inverted will not let any significant water enter by the small opening that constitutes the "door" , if closed, while on this one all big prominent superstructure risks to be ripped off, glass broken and so on. I would hate to be on one of those Nauticats with waves breaking against all that glass. It sure seems a badly designed boat to me, in what regards offshore sailing. Compare with the Bavaria 38:


So, what you think about a Lagoon 440 for example, the Windows and the big door, they are rated A right? ridiculous really!!
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Old 01-12-2014, 15:34   #409
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Re: The Yard Guys

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4 persons are using 8 gallons per day lets say, thats 10 days of wáter in the b38,

……….
Beth and Evans sail without one
You just compared 4 people on a boat holding 80 gallons with 2 people on a boat holding 200 gallons.

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Old 01-12-2014, 15:37   #410
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Re: The Yard Guys

So under your logic this 2 boats deserve to be rated B?
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Old 01-12-2014, 15:39   #411
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Re: The Yard Guys

That wasn't my point. I was just pointing out the disconnect of your comparison. B&E not needing a watermaker is solely due to larger tankage and less people.

Nevermind…

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Old 01-12-2014, 16:04   #412
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Re: The Yard Guys

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That wasn't my point. I was just pointing out the disconnect of your comparison. B&E not needing a watermaker is solely due to larger tankage and less people.

Nevermind…

Mark
So, basically what you're saying is that elephants should, in fact, mate with monkeys AND drink dirty water.

Preposterous!
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:04   #413
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Re: The Yard Guys

OK guys, this is getting pretty silly and trivial. Let's step away from arguing about whether the class A rating, for a NEW boat is meaningful or hype.

Instead, let us consider whether the lightly built new boat, which is highly dependent upon the glued-in liner/grid for structural integrity, will be fit for purpose after five or ten years of service? The brass through hulls can be renewed, other systems can be inspected and updated (just like in the older designs) but what about the hull?

I think that it is arguable that the A rating will still be in effect (not aware of a time limit or a need for re-certification) at such time. I wonder if the boat will still be as sound as when built. Our resident experts have mentioned that inspection of the adhesive joints in such boats is impossible. How will one determine if the boat is sound? I'm not expressing an opinion here, but suspect that the older, more heavily built boat will survive the years better. Several of you have mentioned that there is an implicit "use-by" date associated with modern construction, yet there is no mention of this in the A classification AFAIK.

Oh... for Smack: It was not me who was saying watermakers and gen sets are necessary for long passages. None of my passage making boats have had either.

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Old 01-12-2014, 16:12   #414
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
.....
I think 2.5 gallons for person per day is ok in my book, or even 2 gallons , 4 persons are using 8 gallons per day lets say, thats 10 days of wáter in the b38, with fresh wáter botles packs placed i dont know but placed somewhere maybe you can reach 15 days or 20,, or even less if the girls want to take the dam long showers! for me is not enough.. just me ,,sure others can use the wáter better than me . so a watermaker is a nice invention for long days at sea or in remote places.
...
You surely need a 60ft Oyster to cruise
2.5 gallons are 9.5L of water for each person. On my boat we waste about 12 liters a day while cruising "normally" but an Atlantic crossing is an Atlantic crossing not normal cruising. More than half the water we waste goes away with my wife washing dishes and another good part with she taking the salt out of the body after the two day water baths I am afraid on a small boat on an Atlantic crossing bathing will have to be strictly with salt water and the same with washing dishes.

Those two things are responsible for the consumption of 2/3 of the water. So I guess that on an Atlantic crossing we could do with 4 liters a day (2 L each), but not to be so Spartan, let's add one liter more for washing the teeth and the face on the morning. That gives 6 liters a day for two, 9 liters a day for three. On 22 days it will be 198L. There will be a reserve of more than the double of that and if the sailing goes well at the end of the crossing water can be used on bigger quantities, namely for washing, not that I need it. I can pass an all moth bathing with sea water. I am lucky, my skin and hair likes it. I think it is genetic

But you seem to need a fresh water bath everyday
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:16   #415
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
OK guys, this is getting pretty silly and trivial. Let's step away from arguing about whether the class A rating, for a NEW boat is meaningful or hype.

Instead, let us consider whether the lightly built new boat, which is highly dependent upon the glued-in liner/grid for structural integrity, will be fit for purpose after five or ten years of service? The brass through hulls can be renewed, other systems can be inspected and updated (just like in the older designs) but what about the hull?

I think that it is arguable that the A rating will still be in effect (not aware of a time limit or a need for re-certification) at such time. I wonder if the boat will still be as sound as when built. Our resident experts have mentioned that inspection of the adhesive joints in such boats is impossible. How will one determine if the boat is sound? I'm not expressing an opinion here, but suspect that the older, more heavily built boat will survive the years better. Several of you have mentioned that there is an implicit "use-by" date associated with modern construction, yet there is no mention of this in the A classification AFAIK.

Oh... for Smack: It was not me who was saying watermakers and gen sets are necessary for long passages. None of my passage making boats have had either.

Jim
That's actually what this thread is supposed to be about. If any of the yard guys answer this question outright - I'll be very suspicious about that answer until I see evidence backing it up.

The actual answer to the longevity of these production boats can't be known until there is much more evidence of common structural problems across a certain brand and time-frame. If yard guys are seeing that evidence in their work - it would be awesome for them to post it here...regardless of brand (production or blue water). That would be helpful to everyone reading.

Even so, I think we all recognize (even without specific evidence of it) that the life-span of production boats will probably not be the same as old over-built boats. But to tie any actual time frame to that would be wildly irresponsible. Of course, that never stops anyone.
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:17   #416
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Re: The Yard Guys

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You surely need a 60ft Oyster to cruise
2.5 gallons are 9.5L of water for each person. On my boat we waste about 12 liters a day while cruising "normally" but an Atlantic crossing is an Atlantic crossing not normal cruising. More than half the water we waste goes away with my wife washing dishes and another good part with she taking the salt out of the body after the two day water baths I am afraid on a small boat on an Atlantic crossing bathing will have to be strictly with salt water and the same with washing dishes.

Those two things are responsible for the consumption of 2/3 of the water. So I guess that on an Atlantic crossing we could do with 4 liters a day (2 L each), but not to be so Spartan, let's add one liter more for washing the teeth and the face on the morning. That gives 6 liters a day for two, 9 liters a day for three. On 22 days it will be 198L. There will be a reserve of more than the double of that and if the sailing goes well at the end of the crossing water can be used on bigger quantities, namely for washing, not that I need it. I can pass an all moth bathing with sea water. I am lucky, my skin and hair likes it. I think it is genetic

But you seem to need a fresh water bath everyday

I dont know but my nuts after 2 days with salt wáter looks really bad,
my condolences to your wife!!! LolOLo hey just kidding hehe..
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:34   #417
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
OK guys, this is getting pretty silly and trivial. Let's step away from arguing about whether the class A rating, for a NEW boat is meaningful or hype.

Instead, let us consider whether the lightly built new boat, which is highly dependent upon the glued-in liner/grid for structural integrity, will be fit for purpose after five or ten years of service? The brass through hulls can be renewed, other systems can be inspected and updated (just like in the older designs) but what about the hull?

I think that it is arguable that the A rating will still be in effect (not aware of a time limit or a need for re-certification) at such time. I wonder if the boat will still be as sound as when built. Our resident experts have mentioned that inspection of the adhesive joints in such boats is impossible. How will one determine if the boat is sound? I'm not expressing an opinion here, but suspect that the older, more heavily built boat will survive the years better. Several of you have mentioned that there is an implicit "use-by" date associated with modern construction, yet there is no mention of this in the A classification AFAIK.

Oh... for Smack: It was not me who was saying watermakers and gen sets are necessary for long passages. None of my passage making boats have had either.

Jim
I think a boat can hold the A cert no matter if the grid is damaged or any other kind of structural damaged, but im not sure, Insurance companys are in fact maybe the problem after a survey, and EU countrys have their own regulations regarding the condition of the boat, for example in Spain boats need to pass a inspection every few years by GOV techs to renovate boat certifications, wooden boats i think every 2 years, since surveyors have a hard time to inspect grid liners and other hiden stuff , they just stamp the Ok in the list if they dont see anything obvious, and is funy because in my book this is not inspected.
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:37   #418
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Re: The Yard Guys

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So, what you think about a Lagoon 440 for example, the Windows and the big door, they are rated A right? ridiculous really!!
Ahm, you do realize that you're talking about a catamaran? Those have very different stability numbers than a monohull...even a "Nauticat" which has "cat" in its name but still has only one hull.
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:39   #419
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Re: The Yard Guys

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So under your logic this 2 boats deserve to be rated B?








Do you really think that these two types of boats are comparable in what regards safety and seaworthiness? Huge "windows", huge lateral door on a fiberglass and wood light structure versus smaller "windows" on a steel structure with a steel door on the cockpit? Came on
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Old 01-12-2014, 16:44   #420
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Ahm, you do realize that you're talking about a catamaran? Those have very different stability numbers than a monohull...even a "Nauticat" which has "cat" in its name but still has only one hull.
So you are saying that a L440 cant capsize never ever!! what about others pilothouse with the big structures in the deck? the pilothouse philosophy is to be able to steer and control the boat from the cabin.. i think..

Sincé Nauticats are made in Finland and they dont target tropical chárter companys in their sales, i guess just guess they are well tested in the worst conditions posible, i never Heard any history of a Nauticat capsized or flooded by seas or rolled, they are infact very tough boats , jezz Finlad dude, the penguins....
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