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Old 30-11-2014, 05:51   #331
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Certain boats (and brands) have a reputation for a reason. ..
I agree. Sailors would not make Beneteau no1 in sales if they had not a great reputation regarding price/quality. Lots of other options around at a similar price tag.

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
... I point back at the comment the Hunter rep made, that 97% of the boat owners (I assume he is talking in the USA) are day or coastal sailors, and that is what their boats are designed for to appeal to that market. They don't care about the 3% who cross oceans. That is good business, and it is good for a rep to not pretend, like Bene is, that they are building something they really are not.
You mean, if those 3% that cross oceans sunk the sales and reputation would not be affected? Off course they have to care, even if the boats are not designed having that primarily on mind, they have to be able to do that on the right season otherwise the other 97% would not buy them. That's a little bit like the 90% that buy reputable old shoes with a great bluewater reputation (when they were new 40 years ago) even if they are never going to cross an ocean on it.

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
The discussion is that some newer boats (the Bene I highlighted) are represented to be what they are not. What kind of builder seriously markets their boat as a "cruiser", "weekender" and a "daysailer" and expects to do so credibly because it is a brand name? They are being disingenuous by half, trying to claim to be all things to all sailors. What's with that seriously silly double wheel set up in a 36' (I know they say it is a 38, but it isn't) boat? What kind of poser are they appealing too?
..
Can you be more specific regarding Beneteaus to be "represented to be what they are not"?

The example you give regarding the Oceanis 38 makes no sense: The boat is advertised as a cruiser, a weekender and a daysailer and to each of those labels corresponds a different interior more adapted to each use. We are talking here about a boat with enough stability and seaworthiness to cross Oceans on the right season (with the right interior).

Can you explain how in this case (that you give a paradigmatic) it applies the wrongdoing in information regarding the boats "represented to be what they are not"?
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Old 30-11-2014, 06:36   #332
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Thanks to all for very interesting and informative reading. Two thoughts:

Value exists only in the mind. I bought a Tanzer 26 brand new then later a pretty worn San Juan 24. Paid ten times as much for the Tanzer, had much more fun on the San Juan.

Why do so many people seem to think that profit is some evil concept dreamed up by demon capitalists? Do you want to work for an unprofitable company and would you really want a boat from a company that is so poorly managed they can't turn a profit on luxury items? Would YOU work for nothing? Just saying... Profitable companies tend to be around for a while and, generally, provide much better product and customer service.
Agree with most everything you said, Neil. There are those, however, who write and speak as though profit is bad and insinuate that pursuing it is THE cause of poor quality. Markets ultimately determine the the level of quality at given price points. Faulting a company for its profits reflects an attitude. Offering customers a product that is acceptable to them at a price they can afford is what successful businesses do. Blaming the company for producing a product their customers can and will buy at margins that meet the needs of the owners is simply specious. Not everyone can afford the best. Customers have much more to do with the quality found in the market place than the profit a company makes. As far a boats, go, I don't need a battleship to explore the Carolina's coastal waters or inland lakes. I'm glad there are Hunters, Catalinas, etc. out there that meet that my needs very well. If I were a RTW world sailor these are not the boats I'd pick. There are analogies in virtually every industry... and there are those buying/using products in every industry that seem to think that the product they are able to buy is of lower quality because of company profits rather than their own pocketbook.

What does all this have to do with coastal cruisers vs blue water boats? A lot. Over the long haul, consumers generally get what they want/need at what they are willing to pay. Seems most folks who prolifically post on the sailing sites I'm looking to for information push "blue water" quality when a very, very small percentage of sailors will EVER need it. Plus, from what I've read, most blue water boats would be horrible at how they would be used by the vast majority of buyers.

Again, good reading here. Lots of heartfelt dissension expressed with appropriate passion and, more importantly, valid rationale. This is beneficial for those seeking to make informed decisions.



Hold on, no, when you make profit by killing the quality factor i dont think is well managed, is in fact poorly managed, the top brands are still doing profit with quality boats, i dont work for nothing but also i dont make profit doing shity work here and there, even i loose some customers who try and try to do a crapy job for litle cash, not me, i dont do this kind of Jobs if is not do it right..

Yes i can work for less money for a company if is doing nice things and if im happy with this kind of work, we have a estándar rate , if you come to me with xxx problem with a tight Budget we can get a deal with the same quality job as if you pay the estándar rates. thats me, others in their own...

Its a fact, most production boats problems come from Factorys shortcuts,
the general trend in certain sizes from 30 to 40 ft is to make the boats lighter and faster, beamy and roomy inside, low maintenance and low cost, and i dont see any problem with that unless they play with quality , lighter fast and strong cost a lot of money...[/QUOTE]
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Old 30-11-2014, 08:20   #333
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You may also have a look at the boats that retired from the ARC this year. They don't tell about the problems except that the one autopilot had problems with it, another had problems on the mast, other steering problems. Here are the boats that retired from the ARC or had problems: Starlight 39 (autopilot problems), Swan 44, XC50, First 345, Dufour 40e, Mobile 53 (mast repairs), Discovery 57 (steering equipment).
Woohoo! The Hunter humiliated the Swan!
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Old 30-11-2014, 09:41   #334
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Re: The Yard Guys

HeHe.. chill man, im just quoting you because i feel dont make sense to defend something and act diferent, i agree with you about the herresoftl you see, its a crapy Project with bulkheads toasted, guess what? i dont mind..

Fiasco with your Dc? yes, you have a dc AC fiasco in your hunter, see again, you pay 60.000$ for a 26 years old Hunter, you think is a good deal, you drop in the boat for start the rigging and few patches bills , like the wáter tanks , 350 bucks for the epoxy job, nice done, but you should know Aluminium and fresh wáter its a bad idea, im not saying you are rebuilding the whole freaking boat, but if your hunter never got a refit in those 26 years sooner or later someone is going to pay the bill, you? no idea ,,,but the wiring its a mess after read pages and pages of Dc Ac tales in SN.

If you want a good advice from a Yard guy , that dirty hose running straight to a FG tube in the hull in the fuel tank compartment need a valve man, seriously,,, im still trying to figúrate why Hunter choose to place the tank in that lame spot, but anyway...

Mi boat is rerigged 6 years ago at no expense by me and a rigger .
Stalock and dyform .

And to be honest the CSY picture looks much better than your 2 pictures showing your wiring mess, like i say in a previous post, 3 years ago a Legend in sound condition with extras like solars panels, wind generator, with a nice gizmo electronic package is sell it here for 38000u$, old customer willing to jump to a Ovni. so yours 60.000u$ sounds a scam to me, but just me.

And since you claim and defend, buy new, buy technology, buy fast and light, buy sailing today and dont spend your days fixing things and upgrading stuff, i dont understand why you get a 26 years old Hunter, yes because it fill your preferences and purposes, something i understand, the
rest is BS, sorry if sounds rude.

I defend both ways, and many in this fórum , even abv3 defend the same, mínimum standars in boat quality, and the real deal, is not something like we hate chines hull formes , or doublé whopper weel cockpits ... do you work for any sailing magazine doing reviews in new boats, no? then look for a position there, you can do it really well...

I buy my boat from a guy in really dificult financial problems, and i bite the bullet with the old lady, i dont expect to buy it and im not searching for a boat in that moment, just come to me like a excellent deal by the owner problems and the cash in my pocket, sad for the owner because the boat is close to pristine condition when i buy it, and we enjoy it to much, Caribbean chain up and down 4 times , from US east coast to South america, from St Marteen to Madeira and back visiting Las Palmas in the way down, Panama, san blas, Belize, Honduras etc... not bad for a 30 something years old boat and still going very strong today, i dont put my money in rudders problems , keel problems, or hull problems ,, thats something eliminated from the list with this boat, i put my money in a new dingy, few electronic upgrades, sails, and engine.. probably i sell it in a couple of years and buy a aluminium boat because i want to try Alu...

So you know?, buying a well made it boat with a good reputation with litle work to do is sometimes a way much better than pay doublé or triple to buy a new inferior boat sometimes not designed for that purpose and with a overall short life span , chárter companys here have 2 and 3 years old new production boats used so hard and if you see the boats looks like they have 10 years of use. Beneteau have few really good models in the market and others are a complety waste of cash ,,same in Bavaria, Jeaneau, Catalina, Hunter, etc...

You, like you say , your own words, have a few offshore deliverys and lots of daysailing in the Gulf and lots of days in the dock, obviously you dont have enough offshore experience to rate boat A or boat B, obviously after you make that planed trip to the caribbean in your Hunter , your opinions and advice are going to be more logical...we wait for that!!!

Your messy DC wiring....
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Old 30-11-2014, 10:14   #335
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Woohoo! The Hunter humiliated the Swan!
I don't see it that way. It was an old Swan 44 and I suspect the organization did not let them sail out. They had sailed all the way from Finland to do the Rally.

Another bluewater boat retiring and looking for shelter in Cabo verde, a Moody 47. A lagoon 450 went also there but they don't say it retired. Maybe they went there only to look at the views It is stopped anyway.
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Old 30-11-2014, 12:11   #336
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The example you give regarding the Oceanis 38 makes no sense: The boat is advertised as a cruiser, a weekender and a daysailer and to each of those labels corresponds a different interior more adapted to each use. We are talking here about a boat with enough stability and seaworthiness to cross Oceans on the right season (with the right interior).

Can you explain how in this case (that you give a paradigmatic) it applies the wrongdoing in information regarding the boats "represented to be what they are not"?
Paulo, a boat change status from a daysailor to a cruiser just because the number of berths??

The right season and the wrong season, the right season in the med, summer, but in summer you can get nasty surprises to.

The Tropical North Atlantic, Winter, trades , fair weather, the way back close to summer start or the hurricane season, lows dont show so often and they are more northerly than in Winter, but if you get caught there you can expect serious weather as in Winter, if the boat is designed to cross oceans in the right season then is not designed to sustain serious weather for days.
If is able to sustain or not serious weather is more a crew and skipper skill and with the luck in your side.
Just saying....
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Old 30-11-2014, 12:27   #337
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Paulo, a boat change status from a daysailor to a cruiser just because the number of berths??

The right season and the wrong season, the right season in the med, summer, but in summer you can get nasty surprises to.

The Tropical North Atlantic, Winter, trades , fair weather, the way back close to summer start or the hurricane season, lows dont show so often and they are more northerly than in Winter, but if you get caught there you can expect serious weather as in Winter, if the boat is designed to cross oceans in the right season then is not designed to sustain serious weather for days.
If is able to sustain or not serious weather is more a crew and skipper skill and with the luck in your side.
Just saying....
I bet that an Oceanis 38 is able to get more bad weather than what most the crews can get before putting the Epirb on.

Regarding the Oceanis 38 you have to see it the other way around: it is not a daysailer with offhore potential but a cruiser with offshore potential that can be converted on a daysailer changing the interior. It still has offshore potential but all that open space and lack of storage is not truly adequate for offshore sailing.
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Old 30-11-2014, 12:31   #338
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I bet that an Oceanis 38 is able to get more bad weather than what most the crews can get before putting the Epirb on.

Regarding the Oceanis 38 you have to see it the other way around: it is not a daysailer with offhore potential but a cruiser with offshore potential that can be converted on a daysailer changing the interior. It still has offshore potential but all that open space and lack of storage is not truly adequate for offshore sailing.
Agree plus 1 there is crews and there is crews!!
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Old 30-11-2014, 13:44   #339
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, I followed their blog for a while. Got a bit boring after a while - so I haven't looked in on it for some time.

Interesting that they get rid of the HR (taking a $52K bath in the process) in favor of a run-down, leaky project boat. Must be this...
Not sure if that was a bath or not. I think they priced it ambiguously, and lowered their price incrementally every couple of weeks. It was in the Caribbean, and they did want it sold, so did what was needed. Not all owners are that realistic... their's sold, many are still for sale now because owners won't go with what the market is. Too many think that because they replaced their rigging or water tanks that the boat is now worth what their maintenance or repairs cost.

Markets don't work that way.


Quote:
See? Space is pretty important. Important enough to lose $52K to get rid of that prime, blue water HR. These fine boats don't seem to hold their value as well as you guys say they do. Maybe something to do with demand.
Personally I think it was a bad decision, but Alex liked fast boats (Duende is an ex racer) and he had significant ability to address many of the issues (he worked as a shipwright in Antigua for awhile). It is not a decision I would have made, but there are those that want space and want fast. One lives with whatever choices is right for oneself; that doesn't make it right for everyone.


Quote:
Well, obviously it depends on the issue. As for what "major surgery" might be required. I have no idea. But if it was major enough, I'd have no problem walking away and buying another boat. I have insurance after all...and there are TONS of great production boats out there for great prices.

I'm not one that believes that boats are supposed to last forever.
I would be surprised if any insurance covers structural defects or maintenance issues. Are you sure BoatUS insurance does if it is not as a result of an accident with another boat or perhaps a dock? Do they really have that as part of their all perils coverage?
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Old 30-11-2014, 13:50   #340
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Re: The Yard Guys

Well, let me see if I can explain things a bit more clearly. Let's start with this...

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
im just quoting you because i feel dont make sense to defend something and act diferent
I don't either. But I'm not. I'll try yet again to explain this to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And since you claim and defend, buy new, buy technology, buy fast and light, buy sailing today and dont spend your days fixing things and upgrading stuff, i dont understand why you get a 26 years old Hunter, yes because it fill your preferences and purposes, something i understand, the rest is BS, sorry if sounds rude.

Fiasco with your Dc? yes, you have a dc AC fiasco in your hunter, see again, you pay 60.000$ for a 26 years old Hunter, you think is a good deal, you drop in the boat for start the rigging and few patches bills , like the wáter tanks , 350 bucks for the epoxy job, nice done, but you should know Aluminium and fresh wáter its a bad idea, im not saying you are rebuilding the whole freaking boat, but if your hunter never got a refit in those 26 years sooner or later someone is going to pay the bill, you? no idea ,,,but the wiring its a mess after read pages and pages of Dc Ac tales in SN.

And to be honest the CSY picture looks much better than your 2 pictures showing your wiring mess, like i say in a previous post, 3 years ago a Legend in sound condition with extras like solars panels, wind generator, with a nice gizmo electronic package is sell it here for 38000u$, old customer willing to jump to a Ovni. so yours 60.000u$ sounds a scam to me, but just me.
First, don't worry about being "rude" to me. I'd rather you say exactly what you mean instead of pussy-footing around. I'm not tender...I don't easily get offended. So it's all good. But it's far from "BS". It's just that you still don't understand the details.

Why did I not buy a new production boat? After all my research and looking at various boats, I would have - no question - but I wanted to pay cash for my boat AND the upgrades it needed, AND still have cash left over for our cruising over the next 4 years. I could easily have taken out a loan for a new boat - but I didn't want debt. So why put ALL my money into the boat - or carry a big payment for years? That makes no sense.

I've already explained this - and in more detail on my blog here. But I wanted to stay under $60K (preferably $50K) all-in for the boat-related expenses (purchase and all upgrades/additions).

My actual purchase price for this H40 was $42,060. So I'm not sure how you see that as a "scam" - but I don't really care either. I feel great about the deal I got - and the seller was even happy. And now I'm adding all the stuff I want to add.

So, I absolutely believe that a new production boat FAR outweighs ANY used boat (especially "blue water" brands) for great value and perfect suitability to virtually any cruising a sailor wants to do. And I will likely get a new or very slightly used production boat for my next purchase. And I will again pay cash. There is no way in hell I will ever buy an old, heavy boat. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
If you want a good advice from a Yard guy , that dirty hose running straight to a FG tube in the hull in the fuel tank compartment need a valve man, seriously,,, im still trying to figúrate why Hunter choose to place the tank in that lame spot, but anyway...
What dirty hose are you talking about? The brownish ones here?



Those are the cockpit drain hoses. Do I really need a valve on those?

As for the fuel tank location, I guess the advantage is that it makes it a lot easier to fully inspect/replace than the ones I've seen under the floorboards of a couple of "blue water" boats I've been on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Mi boat is rerigged 6 years ago at no expense by me and a rigger . Stalock and dyform .
Really? You didn't even pay for the parts and cable? Impressive. But remember, minaret says you should count your time (and your rigger friend's). Nothing is free...especially for a newbie who has to pay yard guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I defend both ways, and many in this fórum , even abv3 defend the same, mínimum standars in boat quality, and the real deal, is not something like we hate chines hull formes , or doublé whopper weel cockpits ... do you work for any sailing magazine doing reviews in new boats, no? then look for a position there, you can do it really well...
I do some writing here and there. And, thus far, I've never seen any reason to say that the old way was "the best way". It was just a way things were done with what was available at that time. I'm a fan of progress - not Luddite tradition.

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I buy my boat from a guy in really dificult financial problems, and i bite the bullet with the old lady, i dont expect to buy it and im not searching for a boat in that moment, just come to me like a excellent deal by the owner problems and the cash in my pocket, sad for the owner because the boat is close to pristine condition when i buy it, and we enjoy it to much, Caribbean chain up and down 4 times , from US east coast to South america, from St Marteen to Madeira and back visiting Las Palmas in the way down, Panama, san blas, Belize, Honduras etc... not bad for a 30 something years old boat and still going very strong today, i dont put my money in rudders problems , keel problems, or hull problems ,, thats something eliminated from the list with this boat, i put my money in a new dingy, few electronic upgrades, sails, and engine.. probably i sell it in a couple of years and buy a aluminium boat because i want to try Alu...
Cool. I'm glad you got a great deal on the boat. Kind of sad that the seller had to take such a hit to give you that good of a deal - sounds like he could have definitely used the money that a better valued boat could have given him. But that seems pretty common for these old boats like yours and Hallberg Rassys, etc. Very few people seem to want them. I hope you make out better than the guy you bought it from, or Alex and Taru, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
So you know?, buying a well made it boat with a good reputation with litle work to do is sometimes a way much better than pay doublé or triple to buy a new inferior boat sometimes not designed for that purpose and with a overall short life span , chárter companys here have 2 and 3 years old new production boats used so hard and if you see the boats looks like they have 10 years of use. Beneteau have few really good models in the market and others are a complety waste of cash ,,same in Bavaria, Jeaneau, Catalina, Hunter, etc...
I think it's possible to make it work with an old boat - but it's a huge gamble I would NEVER recommend to a newb sailor who wants to go cruising. It makes FAR more sense for that newb to buy as new a production boat as possible and go sailing instead of working for years on a boat or, worse, paying yard guys to do it.

Then, if they like cruising and feel they want something old, they'll have a MUCH better idea of what that entails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
You, like you say , your own words, have a few offshore deliverys and lots of daysailing in the Gulf and lots of days in the dock, obviously you dont have enough offshore experience to rate boat A or boat B, obviously after you make that planed trip to the caribbean in your Hunter , your opinions and advice are going to be more logical...we wait for that!!!

Your messy DC wiring....
Actually, I don't need the experience to rate boat A or boat B. My opinions are informed by sailors with much more experience than even you...guys like Hal Roth, Michael of Sequitur fame, MarkJ of Sealife, etc...oh, and virtually the entire modern yachting industry - all of whom are in stark contrast to what you (and some others) are preaching here.

You may think your experience makes your opinions right. But that's not the case.

That messy DC wiring?

The bilge before the yard guys did their thing:


The bilge after the yard guys did their thing...


Definitely messy. And neither I nor Hunter had anything to do with that. It was the "professional" yard guys whom I'm sure have FAR more offshore experience than I.

I'll take the advice of the pros that actually know what they are doing - and make sense.
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Old 30-11-2014, 13:51   #341
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree. Sailors would not make Beneteau no1 in sales if they had not a great reputation regarding price/quality. Lots of other options around at a similar price tag.
I believe Beneteau pretty well owns the charter market, and most of their production is targeted at it.

Quote:
You mean, if those 3% that cross oceans sunk the sales and reputation would not be affected? Off course they have to care, even if the boats are not designed having that primarily on mind, they have to be able to do that on the right season otherwise the other 97% would not buy them. That's a little bit like the 90% that buy reputable old shoes with a great bluewater reputation (when they were new 40 years ago) even if they are never going to cross an ocean on it.
The Bene 38 has an A8 rating.

Do you seriously believe it is capable to take 8 people across oceans? How? It doesn't have room for a generator for water production, it doesn't have sea bunks, and you better be only on one heel the way the sink is situated.

I agree, if keels or rigging started falling off the boat made by a manufacturer, even years after it was built, it affects its reputation.


Quote:
Can you be more specific regarding Beneteaus to be "represented to be what they are not"?

The example you give regarding the Oceanis 38 makes no sense: The boat is advertised as a cruiser, a weekender and a daysailer and to each of those labels corresponds a different interior more adapted to each use. We are talking here about a boat with enough stability and seaworthiness to cross Oceans on the right season (with the right interior).
See my comments above.
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Old 30-11-2014, 14:05   #342
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I don't see it that way. It was an old Swan 44 and I suspect the organization did not let them sail out. They had sailed all the way from Finland to do the Rally.

Another bluewater boat retiring and looking for shelter in Cabo verde, a Moody 47. A lagoon 450 went also there but they don't say it retired. Maybe they went there only to look at the views It is stopped anyway.
This ARC is certainly doing the guys in this and the rudder thread no favors. Production boats are looking better all the time.
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Old 30-11-2014, 14:21   #343
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Not all owners are that realistic... their's sold, many are still for sale now because owners won't go with what the market is. Too many think that because they replaced their rigging or water tanks that the boat is now worth what their maintenance or repairs cost.

Markets don't work that way.
Exactly. So do you really think Minaret's boat would be able to fetch the $1.7M his buddy says it's worth (which is 7-9 times more than the other N52s on the market)?

How about the $600K for Neil's boat that his buddy says it's worth (which is 5-7 times more than the other CSY44s on the market)?

According to the prices currently out there - I feel fairly comfortable in saying...no freakin' way.

And newbs should understand that.

Why? Because Neil and Minaret are professionals who do very, very good work. If they are captive to the market - that rule will go triple for a non-yard-guy. It's very, very expensive to keep the value of these old boats up (as up as you can keep it anyway - you'll almost always lose). Remember, Minaret said he's put almost a quarter-million-dollars into the $350K boat he bought.

What newb cruiser is ready for that?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I would be surprised if any insurance covers structural defects or maintenance issues. Are you sure BoatUS insurance does if it is not as a result of an accident with another boat or perhaps a dock? Do they really have that as part of their all perils coverage?
I don't have Boat US insurance. And we're not talking about structural defects or mtx issues - at that's not what I understood your point to be. My survey checked out fine. We're talking about damage from a storm, collision, etc.

Yes. I'm covered.
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Old 30-11-2014, 14:25   #344
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Re: The Yard Guys

That hose Smack, if is a cockpit drain or not,,, need a valve to open and close it..
Inspection and cleaning port in the side of the fuel tank??? my god!!!
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Old 30-11-2014, 14:31   #345
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Re: The Yard Guys

And sorry to be irritating again Smack , but is just my eyes or you have a crack in top of the grid liner beam in the bilge picture?? anyone noticed??
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