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Old 29-11-2014, 11:38   #316
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Yes, you will never see Oysters and Swans sitting in marinas and doing daysailing and hosting parties. Every single one of those are in the Southern Ocean in survival conditions testing their mettle.

You will also never see them being bought by rich people who hire others to deliver them to places so they can put them in marinas and live on them like portable condo's throwing parties, etc.

If they weren't all constantly being sailed around the world, then one might think that the major market those boats are built for would be the marina condo, coastal cruiser crowd (albeit, a bit richer cliental than Beneteau's).

Mark
There is no doubt you see those high end boats sitting or being captianed to locations. That is not the point.

The point is that of the three examples given, at least one (I didnt look at the rest in detail), the Bene, could hardly be considered blue water. Yet it has an A8 rating.

It has virtually no bulk heads, it certainly doesn't have sea berths or ones that are easily converted, it has limited tankage and storage, and who knows the size of the scuppers if it gets pooped.

But then none of those are parameters of the CE rating. Hence it is an indicator of something that most misinterpret.

The point is also that there were many 1980's and some earlier boats built that have their reputation based on demonstrated build quality, and they have frequently been used for ocean passages. They have earned their stripes.

Many of these new boats use building techniques that are questionable, and certainly not time proven. It is great they are innovative, but does that make them better? Many much more knowledgeable than I would argue not. As example, other than saying XYZ also uses liners, who makes a good case for them? What IS the good case for them?
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Old 29-11-2014, 12:09   #317
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
This is actually similar argument between different types of buyers in real estate. Some just need to have a spanking brand new house or a condo even if it means a marginal or "up and coming" neighborhood, especially when they can't afford a few mil for a brand new condo/house in a great neighborhood. Others will take a beat up old house with good bones but in AAA+ area even if it means an extensive rehab job.

Over the years of course people realize that location is more important in the long run than "newishness" as that gets stale fast but a good location pays for itself many times over. I would say the same is with boats. Some people yearn for new but can only afford a Bavaria or a Hanse. So they will argue here why this is a better choice than an older Passport or HR or some such which after a good refit will cost as much as a new Bavaria but is in a different league regardless. And will always be in a different league.
The key to your post here is one very important question the new boat buyer has to answer:

"Do you want to work on a boat for years or do you want to sail for years?"

Some people prefer boat yards and dust masks to Caribbean anchorages and snorkeling. For the former, I highly recommend they take you guys' advice.

I'll be on the beach.
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Old 29-11-2014, 12:13   #318
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It has virtually no bulk heads
I have already explained how/why you don't understand this point. Even Neilpride has acquiesced that this type of bulkhead design is valid.

Most catamarans do not fit your criteria. Limited tankage? In what way? Do you need enough diesel to cross an ocean under power? Modern reliable watermakers and power generation have many of us storing much less water than most did in the past. Our water tank is only 100gal, and we rarely have more than 40-50 in it.

You are guessing at the scuppers, while denigrating them?

You consider your boat "blue water". How much tankage does it have? Are "bluewater" boats described in part by having hundreds of gallons of tankage for water and diesel? If so, there have been a lot of respected people and boats out there that shouldn't have been.

BTW, we have two full queen-sized beds with no lee cloths or anything. We are very comfortable on passages.

Mark
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Old 29-11-2014, 12:19   #319
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
There is no doubt you see those high end boats sitting or being captianed to locations. That is not the point.

The point is that of the three examples given, at least one (I didnt look at the rest in detail), the Bene, could hardly be considered blue water. Yet it has an A8 rating.

It has virtually no bulk heads, it certainly doesn't have sea berths or ones that are easily converted, it has limited tankage and storage, and who knows the size of the scuppers if it gets pooped.

But then none of those are parameters of the CE rating. Hence it is an indicator of something that most misinterpret.

The point is also that there were many 1980's and some earlier boats built that have their reputation based on demonstrated build quality, and they have frequently been used for ocean passages. They have earned their stripes.

Many of these new boats use building techniques that are questionable, and certainly not time proven. It is great they are innovative, but does that make them better? Many much more knowledgeable than I would argue not. As example, other than saying XYZ also uses liners, who makes a good case for them? What IS the good case for them?
av - you should absolutely buy a 30+ year old, heavy traditional boat for your cruising. I absolutely think it's the best boat for you. It will make you feel good. You'll relax and feel secure and proud.

Hopefully you have the $350,000-$1M to buy a boat like Neil's or Minaret's. No doubt those boats are in pristine, bristol condition.

We'll see you out there and will compliment you as we go by. I promise.
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Old 29-11-2014, 13:00   #320
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I have already explained how/why you don't understand this point. Even Neilpride has acquiesced that this type of bulkhead design is valid.
Can be valid I believe he indicated. I will let him make the comments rather than my amateur interpretation of them.

Quote:
Most catamarans do not fit your criteria. Limited tankage? In what way? Do you need enough diesel to cross an ocean under power? Modern reliable watermakers and power generation have many of us storing much less water than most did in the past. Our water tank is only 100gal, and we rarely have more than 40-50 in it.
I see no readily available way that Bene has any room for generator to run a water make. I assume you run your water maker off a generator, or do you have a large battery bank and solar? If so, what I could determine, that Bene has little room to add a number of batteries. Did you get a different impression?


Quote:
You are guessing at the scuppers, while denigrating them?
I readily admit I am guessing, but having seen the scuppers on other Benes it is an educated guess.

Quote:
You consider your boat "blue water". How much tankage does it have? Are "bluewater" boats described in part by having hundreds of gallons of tankage for water and diesel? If so, there have been a lot of respected people and boats out there that shouldn't have been.
Actually, I don't believe or think I ever said mine was blue water as it is set up. Certainly I would need to deal with water, and do have the room for a water maker and a generator. I'm OK with diesel. We are looking at the rigging as we speak to see if it needs any upgrades (on casual observation, no). Design wise it fits well with in what numbers suggest, matching better than a HR 31 (I was surprised), any Hunters discussed, and comparable to an IP 32. Baba 30s are far better suited to ocean passages than mine.

Regardless, although I am perfectly comfortable with a GOM or Carib passage, I would have to hesitate and have expert opinion on anything beyond that. Some here are more cavalier about the abilities of their boats than I am on mine. Just because brand XYZ did passage DEF doesn't mean your boat should. Perhaps if dozens of XYZ did that passage, it would be more relevant. Obviously weather windows and skipper abilities are a large part of the decision also. I don't over estimate mine.

Quote:
BTW, we have two full queen-sized beds with no lee cloths or anything. We are very comfortable on passages.

Mark
I'm pretty sure catamarans do not have the heeling properties of monohulls.
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Old 29-11-2014, 13:40   #321
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
av - you should absolutely buy a 30+ year old, heavy traditional boat for your cruising. I absolutely think it's the best boat for you. It will make you feel good. You'll relax and feel secure and proud.

Hopefully you have the $350,000-$1M to buy a boat like Neil's or Minaret's. No doubt those boats are in pristine, bristol condition.

We'll see you out there and will compliment you as we go by. I promise.
No need to spend that kind of money. Here is a well founded and properly outfitted HR 352 that sold a couple of years ago for $73,000 (original asking price was $125K). My guess is that the market has not changed much since then from all indications. Someone got one heck of a great boat. That did cross oceans. It bugs the heck out of me I was not ready to buy at the time it became available.

Here is their comments to one of the questions asked on their blog:
Tristan: A HR352 with not much equipment and not very well maintained can be found for as little as 65.000-80.000 Euros but you have to count on a lot of work from your side to get it in good condition. A boat like ours, or other ones with new features, more equipment installed and in good over all condition would cost something between 90.000-120.000 Euros. The boat market, just like most others, have suffered from the last years financial situation and unfortunately you can't ask for as much as you could for only a couple of years ago.
Search results for hallberg rassy | WORLD TOUR STORIES Alex and Taru sailing around the world.Travel blog. Lifestyle blog. Sailing blog.

BTW, that is a great blog to follow, and not just for the eye candy.

It is only one example, and there are many others, of well founded boats designed for ocean passages. It is not one that pretends to be something it is not.

But your right, you will speed right by it in your boat. Which of course is one of your prime conditions, speed. You bought your boat for whatever criteria was important to you, and you got what you wanted. Good speed and a nice comfy interior. It was the right decision for you.

Just answer one question. If you have an issue with one of your bulkheads, how would you be able to inspect that before a major incident let you know? And what major surgery would be required to access that underneath your liner? Just wondering, as I can't visualize it being easy or straight forward. Or perhaps this is not an important criteria for you?
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Old 29-11-2014, 14:50   #322
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Re: The Yard Guys

Litle fuel onboard can be a isue unless you fill the decks with Jerry cans something i hate it and i believe is dangerous in certain conditions, so lets say a sailboat is designed to use the sails even below 10 knts, ok and i agree, lots of patience but wht who is in a hurry in a ocean passage , then the trend in rigs are deck stepped masts and those in a failure come in 2 pieces or 1 piece straight to the bottom of the ocean, if you are lucky and save the bottom part or the top part you can rig something to reach a destination, if not and you are the lucky one with one of those 30 gallons fuel tank and some empty Jerry cans on deck and with 1500 miles ahead then you are screwed for sure...

For me , at least 400 miles range under power its the mínimum , if i use or not is diferent, but thinking you have enough fuel for emergencys or 2 days under power with a wide reserve is peace of mind.

But but!! you cant fit huge tanks in those light perfomance boats , weight , space, so and this is really funy, dont fit huge tanks but WTF , use proper screws in the gosenecks instead of cheap aluminium rivets....
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Old 29-11-2014, 14:52   #323
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just answer one question. If you have an issue with one of your bulkheads, how would you be able to inspect that before a major incident let you know? I would pull the insulation liner off to access the fiberglass tape that holds the bulkhead to the hull since the bulkheads are fiberglassed to the hull just as the boats you are claiming are better.And what major surgery would be required to access that underneath your liner? The liner is below the level of the sole and hardly has any real area to it, but if it really had a problem being loose it would probably mean the boat has broken in half already. But really what you trying suggest is that this a problem and it has pretty much proven to not be.Just wondering, as I can't visualize it being easy or straight forward. Or perhaps this is not an important criteria for you? It isn't because after all the forum talk it isn't a problem with the 1,000s and 1,000s of boats out there. Maybe someone can find an example where it is, but we can find at least as many fiberglassed bulkheads failing.
You probably only met to suggest Smacks boat has some inherent problem (even though I'm sure the fact that it doesn't have a problem doesn't matter), but as an owner of a more modern production boat than Smack's that is 13 years old without any type of hull/deck problem I will provide an answer above as far as my boat goes.

I saw an earlier post on this thread when you made a statement such as "the 80s boats that have proven to be able to ........", wouldn't that statement also apply to modern production boats that have also "done it".

Why is it that so many are so invested in the only choices to be a cruiser are to:

1 - buy some old boat
2 - be rich enough for a high end boat

And far as it goes #2 is just a fancy production boat that shares 90+% of it's "bones" with any other modern production 40+ footer boat.

Are some older boats good - sure
Are some older boats bad - sure
Are some newer boats good - sure
Are some newer boats bad - sure
Are all older boats good - no
Are all newer boats good - no

Are all owners and cruisers with "newer" boats crazy or fools to cruise in them - well I guess it depends on how invested in the answer someone is.
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Old 29-11-2014, 15:44   #324
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
You probably only met to suggest Smacks boat has some inherent problem (even though I'm sure the fact that it doesn't have a problem doesn't matter), but as an owner of a more modern production boat than Smack's that is 13 years old without any type of hull/deck problem I will provide an answer above as far as my boat goes.

I saw an earlier post on this thread when you made a statement such as "the 80s boats that have proven to be able to ........", wouldn't that statement also apply to modern production boats that have also "done it".
Certain boats (and brands) have a reputation for a reason. I would submit that is because of the experience people have had with them. As example, the Hunter Cherubinis have a stellar reputation. A sailboat with a teak deck has issues most sailors will want to avoid, even though they sure look nice. There are many boats/brands out there that are perfectly great for the purposes they are designed for. That does not make them great for all purposes. Nor should conclusions be based on their capabilities based on one or two examples. As I stated earlier, weather is a huge factor, and the sailors ability.

Quote:
Why is it that so many are so invested in the only choices to be a cruiser are to:

1 - buy some old boat
2 - be rich enough for a high end boat

And far as it goes #2 is just a fancy production boat that shares 90+% of it's "bones" with any other modern production 40+ footer boat.
Depending on your purpose, one does not need a high end boat. The reality is that one can buy a very nice used boat, some of them who were high end, for much less than new. The other is that many, and I am one of them, listen to those that repair boats, and respect their judgments. I point back at the comment the Hunter rep made, that 97% of the boat owners (I assume he is talking in the USA) are day or coastal sailors, and that is what their boats are designed for to appeal to that market. They don't care about the 3% who cross oceans. That is good business, and it is good for a rep to not pretend, like Bene is, that they are building something they really are not.

I don't agree with your conclusion that the bones are the same in all boats, or 90% the same.


Quote:
Are some older boats good - sure
Are some older boats bad - sure
Are some newer boats good - sure
Are some newer boats bad - sure
Are all older boats good - no
Are all newer boats good - no
Pretty hard to argue with any of that. The discussion is that some newer boats (the Bene I highlighted) are represented to be what they are not. What kind of builder seriously markets their boat as a "cruiser", "weekender" and a "daysailer" and expects to do so credibly because it is a brand name? They are being disingenuous by half, trying to claim to be all things to all sailors. What's with that seriously silly double wheel set up in a 36' (I know they say it is a 38, but it isn't) boat? What kind of poser are they appealing too?

Quote:
Are all owners and cruisers with "newer" boats crazy or fools to cruise in them - well I guess it depends on how invested in the answer someone is.
Again, if an owner bought a boat based on the intended use, of course they are not crazy. As long as the limitations of the boat is recognized. I certainly have many with mine.
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Old 29-11-2014, 20:55   #325
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Some here are more cavalier about the abilities of their boats than I am on mine. Just because brand XYZ did passage DEF doesn't mean your boat should.
Actually, it means that maybe you shouldn't. If the boat has done it - the boat can obviously do it.
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Old 29-11-2014, 21:10   #326
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
No need to spend that kind of money. Here is a well founded and properly outfitted HR 352 that sold a couple of years ago for $73,000 (original asking price was $125K). My guess is that the market has not changed much since then from all indications. Someone got one heck of a great boat. That did cross oceans. It bugs the heck out of me I was not ready to buy at the time it became available.

Here is their comments to one of the questions asked on their blog:
Tristan: A HR352 with not much equipment and not very well maintained can be found for as little as 65.000-80.000 Euros but you have to count on a lot of work from your side to get it in good condition. A boat like ours, or other ones with new features, more equipment installed and in good over all condition would cost something between 90.000-120.000 Euros. The boat market, just like most others, have suffered from the last years financial situation and unfortunately you can't ask for as much as you could for only a couple of years ago.
Search results for hallberg rassy | WORLD TOUR STORIES Alex and Taru sailing around the world.Travel blog. Lifestyle blog. Sailing blog.

BTW, that is a great blog to follow, and not just for the eye candy.
Yeah, I followed their blog for a while. Got a bit boring after a while - so I haven't looked in on it for some time.

Interesting that they get rid of the HR (taking a $52K bath in the process) in favor of a run-down, leaky project boat. Must be this...

Quote:
but after almost two years aboard Caos we decided that we wanted to move on, get some more space and we figured that this old, but beautiful Duende would make us happier in the long run.
See? Space is pretty important. Important enough to lose $52K to get rid of that prime, blue water HR. These fine boats don't seem to hold their value as well as you guys say they do. Maybe something to do with demand.

Regardless, I am at least glad to see that you're bringing some reality to the pricing. I'll eat your flip-flops if Neil or Minaret can actually sell their boats for what their buddies say they're worth. I don't see that happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just answer one question. If you have an issue with one of your bulkheads, how would you be able to inspect that before a major incident let you know? And what major surgery would be required to access that underneath your liner? Just wondering, as I can't visualize it being easy or straight forward. Or perhaps this is not an important criteria for you?
Well, obviously it depends on the issue. As for what "major surgery" might be required. I have no idea. But if it was major enough, I'd have no problem walking away and buying another boat. I have insurance after all...and there are TONS of great production boats out there for great prices.

I'm not one that believes that boats are supposed to last forever.
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Old 29-11-2014, 21:19   #327
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Pretty hard to argue with any of that. The discussion is that some newer boats (the Bene I highlighted) are represented to be what they are not. What kind of builder seriously markets their boat as a "cruiser", "weekender" and a "daysailer" and expects to do so credibly because it is a brand name? They are being disingenuous by half, trying to claim to be all things to all sailors. What's with that seriously silly double wheel set up in a 36' (I know they say it is a 38, but it isn't) boat? What kind of poser are they appealing too?.

As for your comment, they are definitely not appealing to you. We get that. But you seem to have very specific requirements that can only be met in old boats. So, buy an old boat. No one around here will knock you for it. But don't knock the new stuff that us and most of the modern sailing world appreciate.
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Old 29-11-2014, 22:40   #328
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Re: The Yard Guys

Time to face it, you buy a 1989 Hunter, in my book is a 26 years old production Hunter, i quote you from SN..

By Smackdaddy.

Let's face it, I'm going to have questions on a million different things...all the way up until I sell the boat years from now. I've got a crap-ton of stuff to learn...from electrical stuff, to plumbing stuff, to diesel engine stuff, to bedding hardware stuff, to...well...

Exactly, to well.... to well ,,,you buy a boat with lot of work to do to.
And then this from SN to..



You nailed it cape. I really don't mind the money. It's nothing compared to sailing with my boys.

I'm fitting out the boat for our crossing to Florida then down to the BVIs over the next 4 summers. So there's a lot to do. It's just impressive how quickly it adds up. And I think it's important for newbs to know what they're getting into when buying a boat. Do you have $10K sitting in your account AFTER you've bought the boat? (Assuming you're going to take her on a big trip.)

I'm also learning a lot. I can handle most things at a general level (engine work, electrical, plumbing, etc.) - but I have no problem calling "The Man" when I need to. I just watch and learn.

Being fairly meticulous, though, it drives me crazy when I see sloppy work like that rat's nest in the bilge. Especially when I've paid good money for it. And I would never get away with coming in 80% (see revision below) above our estimates with our clients in my businesses. So I have no problem questioning a pro that does so. That shouldn't happen. Period.

It's all good, though. The sailing is absolutely worth it

So.. You rely on the yard guys after all!!!
And this....

Actual Estimate/Bill (with parts/replacement of boom sheaves added):
-Decom/Recom of Mast: $880
-Crane/Cherry Picker Unstep: $450
-Replace All Standing Riggin & Topping Lift: $5,107
-Replace All Boom Sheaves: $555
-Total With Tax and Surcharges: $7,644

As mentioned above, I gave the okay to start work and decided to pull new wire for the mast fixtures (radar, lights, etc.) while the mast was down. I purchased all the wire based on their recommendations and worked with their guy for a couple of hours pulling it through the mast. I installed a new VHF antenna, anchor light, and transducer cup myself. And I bought a new deck/steaming light combo - which the guy riveted to the mast himself. Beyond that, he had to purchase a couple of European terminals at Radio Shack for the wind transducer and radar. Also, there were some rigging parts that needed repair/replacement which could not have been seen beforehand. So here's the breakdown of that work:

Actual Bill:
-Labor to Replace Mast Wiring, Fixture, Bus Bar, etc.: $510
-Outside Sales: misc parts, roller furling, connector, weld spreaders, connectors, etc.: $242
-Total With Tax: $822

So here I was at right at $8,500.


Entry level.. 8500 in rigging for a fresh start.Exactly as you pointed in SN, dam B&R RIG...
And the wáter tanks.!!!

I'm trying an interesting fix first. 3M makes a flexible epoxy coating for potable water environments that is used for sealing the interior of municipal water tanks. I bought some and am going to give that a go.

The tank is in fairly good shape but has quite a bit of pitting. Cutting it out and bringing in a new one would be a freakin' nightmare (no way to get it out without cutting it up or pulling apart the interior of the boat). The sealant should fill/seal all the pits, then protect the rest of the inside of the tank from future corrosion. If I do a good job, it should last another 30 years.

We'll see. I just finished sanding and cleaning the inside of the tank this weekend. Next comes the coating

So, corroded wáter tanks with a bunch of epoxy inside...
Welcome to the old boat lots of work and cash to spend world...
Enjoy it...
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Old 30-11-2014, 00:23   #329
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Re: The Yard Guys

Lordy, lordy, Neil - you're getting a little desperate here. Since you're frantically quoting me, let me address some of this kerfluffle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Time to face it, you buy a 1989 Hunter, in my book is a 26 years old production Hunter, i quote you from SN..

By Smackdaddy.

Let's face it, I'm going to have questions on a million different things...all the way up until I sell the boat years from now. I've got a crap-ton of stuff to learn...from electrical stuff, to plumbing stuff, to diesel engine stuff, to bedding hardware stuff, to...well...

Exactly, to well.... to well ,,,you buy a boat with lot of work to do to.
What work is that, Neil? Adding equipment/gear/etc. to it, or rebuilding the entire freakin' boat like these guys avb pointed out with their classic 43' Halsey Herreshoff (for which they willingly lost $52K to get rid of their Hallberg Rassy)?

The boat | WORLD TOUR STORIES Alex and Taru sailing around the world.Travel blog. Lifestyle blog. Sailing blog.



(You'll notice the tabbing for the bulkheads and stringers was all shot. Go figure.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And then this from SN to..

You nailed it cape. I really don't mind the money. It's nothing compared to sailing with my boys.

I'm fitting out the boat for our crossing to Florida then down to the BVIs over the next 4 summers. So there's a lot to do. It's just impressive how quickly it adds up. And I think it's important for newbs to know what they're getting into when buying a boat. Do you have $10K sitting in your account AFTER you've bought the boat? (Assuming you're going to take her on a big trip.)

I'm also learning a lot. I can handle most things at a general level (engine work, electrical, plumbing, etc.) - but I have no problem calling "The Man" when I need to. I just watch and learn.

Being fairly meticulous, though, it drives me crazy when I see sloppy work like that rat's nest in the bilge. Especially when I've paid good money for it. And I would never get away with coming in 80% (see revision below) above our estimates with our clients in my businesses. So I have no problem questioning a pro that does so. That shouldn't happen. Period.

It's all good, though. The sailing is absolutely worth it

So.. You rely on the yard guys after all!!!
Sure I rely on yard guys. But as you've seen by my electrical fiasco from a yard guy "pro" - there are lots of them out there that aren't worth sqaut. So, if you are good, and you aren't hysterically "crying wolf" about production boats, I'll pay you very well to fix stuff I can't.

Nothing to hide here, Neil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And this....

Actual Estimate/Bill (with parts/replacement of boom sheaves added):
-Decom/Recom of Mast: $880
-Crane/Cherry Picker Unstep: $450
-Replace All Standing Riggin & Topping Lift: $5,107
-Replace All Boom Sheaves: $555
-Total With Tax and Surcharges: $7,644

As mentioned above, I gave the okay to start work and decided to pull new wire for the mast fixtures (radar, lights, etc.) while the mast was down. I purchased all the wire based on their recommendations and worked with their guy for a couple of hours pulling it through the mast. I installed a new VHF antenna, anchor light, and transducer cup myself. And I bought a new deck/steaming light combo - which the guy riveted to the mast himself. Beyond that, he had to purchase a couple of European terminals at Radio Shack for the wind transducer and radar. Also, there were some rigging parts that needed repair/replacement which could not have been seen beforehand. So here's the breakdown of that work:

Actual Bill:
-Labor to Replace Mast Wiring, Fixture, Bus Bar, etc.: $510
-Outside Sales: misc parts, roller furling, connector, weld spreaders, connectors, etc.: $242
-Total With Tax: $822

So here I was at right at $8,500.


Entry level.. 8500 in rigging for a fresh start.Exactly as you pointed in SN, dam B&R RIG...
Yes. The B&R rig is expensive. Are you trying to say that if I buy a 40 year old Swan that I don't have to worry about the standing rigging? And if so, how much is that boat to re-rig?

Neil, you're getting carried away here. Most yard guys would recommend re-rigging a boat every 10-15 years or so. What about you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And the wáter tanks.!!!

I'm trying an interesting fix first. 3M makes a flexible epoxy coating for potable water environments that is used for sealing the interior of municipal water tanks. I bought some and am going to give that a go.

The tank is in fairly good shape but has quite a bit of pitting. Cutting it out and bringing in a new one would be a freakin' nightmare (no way to get it out without cutting it up or pulling apart the interior of the boat). The sealant should fill/seal all the pits, then protect the rest of the inside of the tank from future corrosion. If I do a good job, it should last another 30 years.

We'll see. I just finished sanding and cleaning the inside of the tank this weekend. Next comes the coating

So, corroded wáter tanks with a bunch of epoxy inside...
Welcome to the old boat lots of work and cash to spend world...
Enjoy it...
What aluminum water tank doesn't corrode?

Dude, I spent under $350 on that fix. What's the big deal?

You still don't seem to understand that, all in, I've got less than $60K into my Hunter - and it's in great shape.

It is good to see you finally admit that ANY boat (even the "blue water" brand) is a serious cash-hole that you'll ALWAYS be working on. I went into this purchase understanding that full-well and budgeted accordingly.

So, again, feel free to spend your money on your older boat. I don't mind a bit. I'll spend mine on my newer boat. And we'll STILL sail the same water.

So, what's your point?

PS - Here's a CSY 44 that's near where I keep my boat. I've seen it. It's 35 years old and $95K:

1980 CSY 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



Needs work.
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Old 30-11-2014, 05:28   #330
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Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
..
Polux has already done this several times - but let's take a quick look at the DOCUMENTED REALITY of various boats taking on true ocean passages (Atlantic crossings plus) over 7 years. Then let's look the failure rates of the production boats in those mixes.

All you have to do is go to each of these pages and count the total number of boats (usually ~200), then see how many production boats are in that mix, then see how many "bluewater" boats are in that mix, then, finally, see how many of those production boats failed at sea causing an abandonment or SAR.

Here you go, I'll make it easy for you...

ARC 2008:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 30
Jeanneaus - 15
Bavarias - 14
Swans - 13
Oysters - 17
Moodys - 4
Hunters - 0
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

ARC 2009:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 24
Jeanneaus - 17
Bavarias - 13
Swans - 18
Oysters - 11
Moodys - 3
Hunters - 1
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

ARC 2010:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 27
Jeanneaus - 19
Bavarias - 19
Swans - 19
Oysters - 17
Moodys - 10
Hunters - 0
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search
(This includes the Sweden 42 video I linked to above.)

ARC 2011:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 17
Jeanneaus - 24
Bavarias - 8
Swans - 15
Oysters - 9
Moodys - 3
Hunters - 0
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

ARC 2012:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 18
Jeanneaus - 15
Bavarias - 12
Swans - 19
Oysters - 24
Moodys - 5
Hunters - 1
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

ARC 2013:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 17
Jeanneaus - 19
Bavarias - 12
Swans - 10
Oysters - 18
Moodys - 7
Hunters - 1
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

ARC 2014:
World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Beneteaus - 21
Jeanneaus - 16
Bavarias - 10
Swans - 14
Oysters - 13
Moodys - 1
Hunters - 1
Bristols - 0

Rescues Search

++++++++

You really couldn't ask for a better test-base than this. Over 7 years, the fleet will encounter all kinds of conditions in the Atlantic that will test boats of all kinds. Many of these boats do the ARC each year - which means they are moving back and forth across this same route. So double the test.

So - IF, as many in this thread say, Beneteaus do indeed have "paper mache" hulls and inferior bulkhead/rudder attachments, or if Jeanneaus are indeed "flimsy" and dangerous because "Liners that mean cheap poor construction, period", or if Bavarias have failed plywood and Ikea furniture or locker finishes that hurts people and falls apart, etc. - wouldn't we see evidence of these things this across these fleets? If these boats really "aren't up to bluewater sailing" - shouldn't actual bluewater have a say in that?

Another thing you can do is look at John Neal's "Boats To Consider for Offshore Cruising"
and see how many of those "bluewater" brands are now defunct. I think you'll find the percentage pretty high.

This is not opinion. This does not require any kind of "credential". This is real. Period.

So - yet again, something does not add up with the claims you hold dear.

(PS - You seem to have as rare a bluewater boat brand as I do! Rarer even!)
You may also have a look at the boats that retired from the ARC this year. They don't tell about the problems except that the one autopilot had problems with it, another had problems on the mast, other steering problems. Here are the boats that retired from the ARC or had problems: Starlight 39 (autopilot problems), Swan 44, XC50, First 345, Dufour 40e, Mobile 53 (mast repairs), Discovery 57 (steering equipment).
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