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Old 27-11-2014, 20:59   #271
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Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Not wanting to pick nits here, but in fact your original claim was:


Once you start introducing second hand parts into the equation, the bottom line becomes dependent upon the sort of bargains that come your way... not a dependable budget predictor.

In general I agree that with the application of lots of time, skill and effort, one can materially reduce the cost of going cruising. However, I think your figures are a bit stretched for a general guideline for newbies.

Jim
You're right, I misspoke. Meant to say brand new as to rigging and paint only.
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Old 27-11-2014, 21:12   #272
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
5000 for the rigging is the minimun for a doublÚ spreader rig, doublÚ backstay , inner forestay furler, and surprises you always found in between rise the bill to more than 5000...Just to make a example, the crossbeam turnbuckle in some catamarans cost 1500 u$ from 45 to 50 ft...
I have a single spreader and single backstay (acutally may go to double just to make getting to the swim platform easier).

My example of how I save on various installations. Installed a roller furler main last May. In the winter got a c-list deal on a used sturdy Hood 3250 off of a 33' foot boat. Needed to cut just a few feet off and now have a nice set up for short handed sailing. Cost me all of $100 for the roller furler itself, $70 for a new Staylok (the boat junk yard had used ones for $25 each but they were all wrong sizes), few dollars for misc. hardware and $150 labor for the yard guy's day of work. For all new yard install I was quoted prices anywhere from $3K to 6K.
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Old 27-11-2014, 21:21   #273
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Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
"By far". Please.

Look, let's get real, comfort means being BOTH comfortable at sea AND at anchor. Furthermore, you have a good deal of control over comfort at sea. In other words, you don't HAVE to aggressively pound into big waves.

So if you're buying your boat purely around the idea of being slightly more "comfortable" while needlessly pounding into big waves, while cowering in a cramped, dark cabin at sea AND at anchor, I'd say you're seriously doing this whole cruising thing wrong. But do it however you need to, dude.

Even so, let's look at your numbers. Here's an exhaustive list on this very forum that has quite different numbers than what you're listing - but...

Motion Comfort Ratio

You'll see the following:

Hunter 37, Motion Comfort=23 (maybe not the Cherubini, I don't know)
Hunter 40, Motion Comfort=24.97
It appears the calculator I was using has an error in it's formulas. My error, although not my fault. Try this one, which gets numbers a lot closer to what you showed.

Here is the chart it produces comparing our two Hunters.
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Quote:
These ratios are geared toward the older boats - not the newer boats. I don't put much stock in them.
Your boat is a 30 year old design; I'm not sure if you call that new.

Quote:
This is where you unequivocally show that you don't understand speed. There is hull speed, and there is actually getting to and maintaining hull speed in various conditions.

The Cherubini 37 seems to have a PHRF of 132. My 40 has a PHRF of 96. If you're in that Cherubini - you'll be days and days behind me in "serious conditions" while I'm drinking booze at anchor in my comfy salon. But, at least you'll feel safe out there. So you got that going for you.
You may want to re-calibrate your viewpoint on that, as there is virtually no ocean passage that mimics the various legs of a race course. You know better than I that the PHRF is not an empirical rating, nor is it the same on the east coast as the west coast. Nobody outside of those who have been involved in racing give it much credence... it is not the real world of sailing. Ask a European what it means and you will get a blank stare.

Quote:
Yeah, I currently have no desire to cross oceans. We'll just be cruising the Carib the next few years. I might change my mind, though. And I would be very comfortable doing so in my boat.
You'll do fine in the Carib with your boat. No one doubts that.

Quote:
Actually, I'd very much like you to specifically point out how my H40's interior will be insufficient for being off-shore. That should be entertaining.
Best to re-read what the Hunter rep said. Like he stressed, they are targeting the 97% (good business) and design their interiors as such. You may find the discussion on center line berths instructive. I defer to his expertise and viewpoints in this case.

Quote:
Again, use all these numbers to make yourself feel better if you wish. The problem with them is the fact that there are thousands of these newer boats doing exactly what you (and your numbers) say they shouldn't be able to do. I don't really know how you reconcile that in your own brain. But it's got to be some impressive gymnastics.
You may think that 1000's of the new boats are out there, but I would suspect the reality is that only a few are (remember, 97% never go beyond coastal). Here is an interesting chart of the number of boats sold in the US in the years since 1980. What stands out is the large bulge in the early 1980's, and the smaller and smaller number of sailboats sold more recently (you know, the newer ones you surmise are out doing passages by the 1000's).

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Old 27-11-2014, 22:28   #274
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Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I have a single spreader and single backstay (acutally may go to double just to make getting to the swim platform easier).

My example of how I save on various installations. Installed a roller furler main last May. In the winter got a c-list deal on a used sturdy Hood 3250 off of a 33' foot boat. Needed to cut just a few feet off and now have a nice set up for short handed sailing. Cost me all of $100 for the roller furler itself, $70 for a new Staylok (the boat junk yard had used ones for $25 each but they were all wrong sizes), few dollars for misc. hardware and $150 labor for the yard guy's day of work. For all new yard install I was quoted prices anywhere from $3K to 6K.

Sorry mate, i dont understand what you try to say, you mean you change your whole rigging for 200$? 150?
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Old 27-11-2014, 23:17   #275
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Re: The Yard Guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It appears the calculator I was using has an error in it's formulas. My error, although not my fault. Try this one, which gets numbers a lot closer to what you showed.

Here is the chart it produces comparing our two Hunters.
Attachment 92439
That's why you shouldn't put so much faith in old numbers. You are "using the wrong calculator" for this whole debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Your boat is a 30 year old design; I'm not sure if you call that new.
No. I'm not arguing that my particular Hunter is the centerpoint of the "production boats are perfectly fine for blue water debate". You are the one seemingly focused on my 25 year old Hunter 40 Legend. And I understand. It's a very cool boat...and 10' longer. Lots of guys with "proper bluewater boats" drool over my ride.

That said - with what I know of my boat thus far, and of this make of Hunter in general, I'd have no problem taking this boat across an ocean with the right prep (for both me and the boat). Sure, I would prefer a newer boat, but this one is perfect for us right now.

What I'm arguing is that virtually any of the leading brands' newer production boats are FAR AND AWAY better boats for blue water than most of the old tanks being hawked as "good blue water boats" around here. There's just no comparison in overall value. One has to bury their head very deeply in the old calculators and charts to convince themselves otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
You may want to re-calibrate your viewpoint on that, as there is virtually no ocean passage that mimics the various legs of a race course. You know better than I that the PHRF is not an empirical rating, nor is it the same on the east coast as the west coast. Nobody outside of those who have been involved in racing give it much credence... it is not the real world of sailing. Ask a European what it means and you will get a blank stare.
Again, you don't understand. No one is talking about legs on a race course. Your explanation above is what will draw the blank stares.

PHRF deals with many factors of the yacht - but most of them are geared specifically toward how the boat achieves and maintains speed on all points of sail. USS calls it the "speed potential of a yacht". Hull speed means nothing if you can't achieve and maintain it.

Your Cherubini has lousy speed potential. It is slow. It takes a lot to get it moving - and even more to keep it moving. My Hunter 40 has great speed potential. It is fast. It takes far less to get it moving - and far less to keep it moving. This means that ESPECIALLY over a long cruising distance, the Cherubini will fall woefully behind my H40. In fact, it might be so slow that it gets caught in a storm that I don't have to deal with because I'm already at anchor.

That's a very nice comfort ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Best to re-read what the Hunter rep said. Like he stressed, they are targeting the 97% (good business) and design their interiors as such. You may find the discussion on center line berths instructive. I defer to his expertise and viewpoints in this case.
You mean center line berths like on this new Oyster 475? Looks like Hunter was the pioneer for making comfortable blue water boats.



I'm not real interested in what this "Rep" has to say when Oyster "copies" Hunter's interior design. Maybe you shouldn't be either.

This is exactly why I'd love for you to critique my H40's interior. It would be very interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
You may think that 1000's of the new boats are out there, but I would suspect the reality is that only a few are (remember, 97% never go beyond coastal). Here is an interesting chart of the number of boats sold in the US in the years since 1980. What stands out is the large bulge in the early 1980's, and the smaller and smaller number of sailboats sold more recently (you know, the newer ones you surmise are out doing passages by the 1000's).
Out where? I'm still trying to understand what you are referring to as "blue water sailing". Where exactly is that happening in your mind?

The ARC alone is seeing many, many of these boats in a single rally (go look at my numbers earlier in this thread). And, gasp, they are crossing oceans. Just because 97% of the market doesn't do this certainly doesn't mean the boats aren't capable. Are you really thinking all this through?

As for the numbers, please just look at the number of boats these brands sell. You keep turning to these strange calculators and charts...and missing what's right in front of your face. (Hint - there is a "world" out there beyond the US you know).

This whole "you must spend $150K+" to buy a "proper" blue water capable boat is beyond ridiculous. It's like you guys are trying to maintain some strange new "Blue Blazer Club" that's intent on keeping regular people out of their "off-shore country club". It's really weird. And completely misguided.
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Old 28-11-2014, 05:27   #276
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Sorry mate, i dont understand what you try to say, you mean you change your whole rigging for 200$? 150?
Sorry I wasn't clearer. No, I wasn't talking here about re-rigging the whole boat. I just added an outside the mast roller furler in place of/in addition to regular main since I got tired of running up to the mast when single or short handed plus since I was installing a hard top instead of bimini it made perfect sense for rainy/stormy days to be sitting in the cockpit nice and dry instead of getting wet at the mast.

And the yards wanted between $3K and 6K for that furler job alone, which would've included the roller furler itself and installation. But not included some other things which my boat yard guy installed since he was doing the job anyway, such as installing blocks for furler sheet leads to cockpit, etc. DIY total with used furler, hardware and a boatyard guy totalled under $500. Yes, all of the items for the install, except one Stalock, were used but in good shape.
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Old 28-11-2014, 06:20   #277
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Re: The Yard Guys

Currently at anchor with us in San Blas Panama are a Hunter, two Morgans (OI styles), an Ericsson, a Beneteau, a Catalina, a J40 and a couple of other boats that look like 70's or early 80's production models.

And three catamarans, but everyone already agrees that those are cheaply built dangerous boats that should not leave the dock.

What I don't understand is how these boats got here. There simply isn't any way to get to Panama without sailing in some boisterous conditions, if not across an ocean. There certainly isn't any way to get here without doing what Smackdaddy plans to do with his boat.

Beneteaus are one of the most numerous brands we see passing through Panama.

Are these people nuts?

Mark
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Old 28-11-2014, 08:09   #278
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Currently at anchor with us in San Blas Panama are a Hunter, two Morgans (OI styles), an Ericsson, a Beneteau, a Catalina, a J40 and a couple of other boats that look like 70's or early 80's production models.

And three catamarans, but everyone already agrees that those are cheaply built dangerous boats that should not leave the dock.

What I don't understand is how these boats got here. There simply isn't any way to get to Panama without sailing in some boisterous conditions, if not across an ocean. There certainly isn't any way to get here without doing what Smackdaddy plans to do with his boat.

Beneteaus are one of the most numerous brands we see passing through Panama.

Are these people nuts?

Mark
I certianly hope they are not nuts. we are plannning a circumnavigation with a Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3.

One of the items not mentioned (I happily admit I have not read this entire thread), is the these french/english/dutch and partially german boats are built to sail in the north sea dn the Bay of Biscay.

For those of you that have never sailed this part of the world, gale force winds and large short waves are the order of the day - we sail in this stuff all the time, and our boats, be they jeanneau, bene, moody, hansa et.al seem to survive just fine.

Last summer we sailed close-hauled for 2 1/2 days in gale force in the Baltic, and never once felt nervous about the boat - it did just fine.

I have to admit I'm with SD on this one - Tons of these production boats are out there crossing oceans and doing RTWs. Admitted there are some I would be sceptical about, Bavarias are simply not built heavy duty enough for my taste - but they've made it all the way round too.

Virtually no boat, straight production is set for serious ocean going cruising, unless it has been ordered that way. All of them will require modifications, add-on etc, be they "old blue water" or new production.

As with anchors - I'm afraid this is one area where we all will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 28-11-2014, 10:19   #279
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Re: The Yard Guys

I've been in Biscay few times, lol yes, nasty weather, who many are sailing in Biscay in gale forcÚ winds? i mean take a chopper and fly around Biscay , see who many are dealing with the conditions offshore. Iguess not many or none, Mighty Biscay dont care if is a Bene or a Ovni, you dont go out there in bad weather and i think the bene and jeaneaus fleet stay tucked in a dock, in my last croosing in a L380 , we are me and my partner the only 2 cats croosing Biscay in the tail end of a low , a bene deliveried to Sunsail departure 1 day before us with the horrendous result of a injured crewmember , a mainsail ripped in 2, and a starboard cap shroud dislodged from the spreader tip , so if you believe Biscay in bad weather is full of weekend warriors dealing with a F8 or a F9 you are dreaming, since the big % of this boats are deliveried to Charter companys or offshore from the EU , the rest are docked waiting for a good weather weekend or weather window, sure some are caught in a blow, but dont mean nothing, again the big % of looses and breakdowns are not reported in the net.

Moorings and other french charter companys pay a hig Price for hiring people without licenses to make the deliverys in one piece , kind of Young dudes with a fresh license in need for sea hours doing the delivey for half the Price, some of this guys end in the rocks around the spanish coastline and others in SAR operations, but nothing reported in the net he!!

I work for 2 full years for Regis Guillemot charters in Martinique , doing the deliverys, Regis alone loose a 440 and Kiriacoulis almost loose a 380 with a Polish skipper who with the presure to departure from Olones get caught in a deep low and with luck able to comeback to Olones with a semi wrecked 380..

The first pic show my arse in the start of a nasty gale 60 miles from La coruna Spain.

Wing and wing in the midle of the Atlantic.

Nav station.

Safely docked waiting for weather.

Barometer sinking before the Gale...
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Old 28-11-2014, 10:29   #280
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Re: The Yard Guys

A nice weather window departure.

My bots ready for some action.


My last resort.

And gelcoat missing in a Brand new lagoon.. Ouchhh
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Old 28-11-2014, 12:29   #281
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
........................
No. I'm not arguing that my particular Hunter is the centerpoint of the "production boats are perfectly fine for blue water debate". You are the one seemingly focused on my 25 year old Hunter 40 Legend. And I understand. It's a very cool boat...and 10' longer. Lots of guys with "proper bluewater boats" drool over my ride.
You must be very proud of your boat.

Quote:
What I'm arguing is that virtually any of the leading brands' newer production boats are FAR AND AWAY better boats for blue water than most of the old tanks being hawked as "good blue water boats" around here. There's just no comparison in overall value. One has to bury their head very deeply in the old calculators and charts to convince themselves otherwise.
You are arguing not only with me, but people who have much, much more credibility than I or you do. I'll go with what the 'yard guys' say. They are the ones who have to fix things that go sideways. It seems their opinion coincides more with my amateur perspective as opposed to your amateur one.


Quote:
This whole "you must spend $150K+" to buy a "proper" blue water capable boat is beyond ridiculous. It's like you guys are trying to maintain some strange new "Blue Blazer Club" that's intent on keeping regular people out of their "off-shore country club". It's really weird. And completely misguided.
I am not one who thinks 6 figures are required to have a competent blue water boat. You must have had that discussion with someone else.
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Old 28-11-2014, 13:09   #282
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Re: The Yard Guys

If you have the patience you could wade through this blog.... a Hunter ... quite a bit of info buried in there on what worked and what didn't. After leaving Chile they decided not to circumnavigate, sold her in Florida and bought a canal boat in Holland... Sequitur
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Old 28-11-2014, 15:00   #283
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The Yard Guys

What brand new boat can you buy fully equipped and ready to cross the Atlantic for less than $150K. Has to have generator or lots of solar and big batteries for power. Must have water maker and sufficient tankage (fuel & water) for 4 weeks at sea. Must be able to sail up and down wind well. Must be able to survive a survival storm when driven by competent 3 person crew.
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Old 28-11-2014, 15:03   #284
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Re: The Yard Guys

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What brand new boat can you buy fully equipped and ready to cross the Atlantic for less than $150K. Has to have generator or lots of solar and big batteries for power. Must have water maker and sufficient tankage (fuel & water) for 4 weeks at sea. Must be able to sail up and down wind well. Must be able to survive a survival storm when driven by competent 3 person crew.
A hunter????
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Old 28-11-2014, 16:39   #285
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Re: The Yard Guys

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What brand new boat can you buy fully equipped and ready to cross the Atlantic for less than $150K. Has to have generator or lots of solar and big batteries for power. Must have water maker and sufficient tankage (fuel & water) for 4 weeks at sea. Must be able to sail up and down wind well. Must be able to survive a survival storm when driven by competent 3 person crew.
Who said you can buy a brand new boat, fully equipped, for $150K? Of course - that's not too far off:

2015 Bene 38 Oceanis for $148K
2015 Beneteau Oceanis 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2015 Jeanneau 379 for $175K
2015 Jeanneau 379 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2015 Bavaria 37 for $138K
2014 Bavaria Cruiser 37 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

(The Hunters seem be around $189K.)

There seem to be lots of good deals out there. So how is this so mystifying for you?

As for the "surviving a survival storm when driven by competent 3 person crew" - can you please list all the blue water brands that regularly do this, the precise conditions, etc.? By survival storm I assume you mean F11-F12?

I'm not familiar with many sailors that have this one their requirement lists. They usually avoid such weather.
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