The Yard Guys

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Of course not. But the search typically begins with "the (aging) lists". Trust me. I know. That's where I started when I was looking - based on the advice I got in forums (and the advice still being given here).



Actually, no it's not. When you put a newbie sailor into an old, out-of-production boat you introduce an entirely new set, a HUGE set, of problems than simply learning to sail offshore.

As has been said many times by very, very knowledgeable people (MaineSail to name just one) - finding an old boat that has been truly taken care of to the level necessary to be ready to set sail is extremely rare...and very expensive. Newbies aren't ready for that level of discernment - survey or no survey.

So, inexperience + a false sense of security + a tired old boat = SAR. Does that ring a bell on any news stories you've heard lately?



That's just not true - at least not depending on the price range you're looking at. You obviously haven't done many boat searches lately.

As I wrote in my blog, when I started my own searching I was looking for a Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Moody, Passport, Bristol, Hinckley, Morris, etc. The quality boats.

BUT, I wanted to pay cash for my boat. So my personal price limit was $70K. And I didn't want anything over 30 years old. Here's my YW search:

LINK

Click the "more" link under Manufacturer. Surprise, surprise - no Valiant, no Pacific Seacraft, no Moody, no Passport, no Hinckley, no Morris, etc.

Yes, 3-4 Bristols. But seriously not my style. Several Pearsons - a bit closer to what I wanted but still not excited.

So, how many of John Neal's boats can you find in this list that you would recommend to this newb of yours?

While doing so - look at the all the production boats. For the same price - MUCH newer, MUCH bigger selection, MUCH easier to find boats that have been very lightly sailed (very low cycles), etc.

Now, keep upping the maximum price in the search until you start seeing the boats on your list that look like the kind of boat this newb should buy - then again compare with the production boats.

For example, at $100K you get an Alberg, more Bristols, a few Pacific Seacraft - all pretty ancient. But you also get lots of very nice production boats that are only 5-7 years old.

Go a little higher and you start to see some of these higher-end brands, but you're also into brand new production boats with warranties. Just do the math.

So, no, you might like to believe what you typed - but it's not true...depending on how you define "better". In other words, if your idea of "better" only means "it's on the list" - you just have a different sense of better than most.

We all know that Yachtworld pricing is not what you end up paying, so unless you factored that in to your thoughts, one would search at a considerable higher figure.

Of course, the same search parameters on Sailboatlistings.com bring you entirely different results. Heck, you can buy an Oyster, if you can live with the 8' draft. And a nice looking Southern Cross. Or an Island Packet. A Bruce Roberts, including life raft (just in case you really want to go into real bluewater). A Hunter Cherubini, highly regarded.

I'm not sure why you assume 'old' = 'tired'. When one of the 'new' charter boats gets to be 5 years old, it has been used. When it gets 10, one better start thinking new rigging, new sails, and maybe chainplates. A well maintained older boat is no worse than that, and arguably, has better 'bones'. Not many will argue that accessibility to wiring, bulkheads or chainplates is better in a boat without liners, will they? Not many will argue that maintenance, and ease of maintenance is more important than pretty cabinets, unless it is more important to stay close to home or at the dock.

Talk to any marina employee and they will tell you how few of the boats there will actually leave the dock. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Of course many of the newer designs have advantages. Speed is probably one of them, and yes, they sure look pretty. Yup, they can go into bluewater situations. But do you really think that most of the production boats built today will have the longevity and reputation that many of those older boats, including the Hunter Cherubinins, have? I'd lay odds the answer is no. Maybe not your answer, but the answer most will give.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Exile

When I was looking to buy my used boat a knowledgeable friend advised that "you're essentially just buying a 'hull' since most of the components have already worn out or will do so soon." A bit exaggerated, but a good way to look at it, and it's proven itself correct to a large degree.

Unfortunately this logic makes Smack's point exactly. Is it safer (and cheaper) to buy a new or slightly used modern production boat or an old but well regarded "blue water" boat? If all you get in an old boat is a 'hull' then I would say that you are not getting a good deal.

When I bought my boat it was fully capable of sailing across any ocean. And I paid less than a new production boat that would most likely have needed significant upgrades. And I will wager that this boat will be still going some years after that new production boat would be "tired".

I have spent $ on the boat getting new things that I wanted but I have only spent $5K in "repairs" on something my surveyor did not record.

We see people coming here all the time wanting to spend $40K-$60K on a "good used blue water cruising boat" because they don't have $200K to spend on a new boat. On this point I think I agree with Smack, it is a disservice to tell them "sure go ahead get any boat on this here blue water boat list and you will be fine".

[Island Time O25]

There is also a huge difference if a boat was used as a charter in the tropics and then raced by kids in places where the season is long and if it was used during short seasons in Maine or Great Lakes and kept well protected in the winter.

As far as wear and tear - one full season on the water in FL would probably equal to 4-5-6 short seasons in ME. So a 30 yr old ME boat is equivalent or better than 8-10 year old tropically sailed one, other than electronics and rigging but on both they'd have to be updated anyway.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

You can't buy a ready to sail off shore boat that is built for serious weather for $70K new, old or anything in between. No amount of wishing will make it so.

Flicka? Nebe Cabe 28? Nor'Sea 27? Albin Vega? Cape Dory?

All under 30' mind you, all have sailed in as serious an offshore waters as it gets... Bering Sea, the Cape, etc. etc.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Sooo incorrect.
Snip for brevity...

Neither of those examples refutes what I said. You and your friend did not buy a boat ready to go off shore for less than $70K. Each of you bought a boat and did a lot of repairs and extra work.

If someone has a boat for sale that is fully ready to circumnavigate comfortably by a 50 something cruising couple and they are asking less than $125K in my experience something usually isn't right. And there are lots of boats for sale for more than $125K that are not ready for a circumnavigation either so buyers still have to do a lot of homework. Above $125K will get your more comfort fast. $200K will get you something very comfortable. What new boat brand can say the same thing?

Everyone has heard of the famous "divorce sale" or "so and so died and I just need to get rid of this perfect world cruiser" but those stories don't happen much in real life. If you want a world cruising boat that will be as safe for your family as I would want mine then you have to pay for the things that make it possible. Strong bulkheads, rudders that don't snap off and hole the boat, strong and reliable autopilot, keels that can take a hard grounding and keep going, strong mast and standing rigging, fresh sails, reliable engine, reliable power source(s), etc. etc. These details are not free.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by avb3

Flicka? Nebe Cabe 28? Nor'Sea 27? Albin Vega? Cape Dory?

All under 30' mind you, all have sailed in as serious an offshore waters as it gets... Bering Sea, the Cape, etc. etc.

I reserve the right to amend my set of conditions to a boat that a significant other will be willing to accept too. A 50-something couple is not going to make it far in a Contessa 32. The boat will survive but their relationship will not.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Neither of those examples refutes what I said. You and your friend did not buy a boat ready to go off shore for less than $70K. Each of you bought a boat and did a lot of repairs and extra work.

If someone has a boat for sale that is fully ready to circumnavigate comfortably by a 50 something cruising couple and they are asking less than $125K in my experience something usually isn't right. And there are lots of boats for sale for more than $125K that are not ready for a circumnavigation either so buyers still have to do a lot of homework. Above $125K will get your more comfort fast. $200K will get you something very comfortable. What new boat brand can say the same thing?

Everyone has heard of the famous "divorce sale" or "so and so died and I just need to get rid of this perfect world cruiser" but those stories don't happen much in real life. If you want a world cruising boat that will be as safe for your family as I would want mine then you have to pay for the things that make it possible. Strong bulkheads, rudders that don't snap off and hole the boat, strong and reliable autopilot, keels that can take a hard grounding and keep going, strong mast and standing rigging, fresh sails, reliable engine, reliable power source(s), etc. etc. These details are not free.

I don't disagree with what you say. All I was saying is that if a person does not have a $150K+ budget to get an offshore ready boat the next best thing would be finding one which with a little effort and some add'l $$ will become offshore ready. In my experience it's either a question of $$ or time. Those who have $$ but not the time get a ready boat for $150-200K or more. Those of us who have more time than $$ or are willing to invest/spend time and effort can get something for $20-30K, put in another $20-30K and end up with the same thing that someone paid $150K for, we do that. But those different approaches still achieve the same results. And I just cringe when those who themselves spent $100Ks on an offshore boat scare those without that much $$ from buying and outfitting an offshore capable boat for much less.

By the way, speaking of $150-200K. Last year about this time I was at an auction of Swan 47. She was a beauty, sailed by her somewhat semi-famous owner who while away on a world cruise had some financial issues or some such. I was one of the dreamers thinking we can get her for under $100K as her electronics were 10-12 years old, she had some serious engine and gen set issues, etc. Yeah, right. Out of 40+ bidders most fell out after $75K, most of the rest after $100K was passed and only 2-3 guys were bidding to the end, one having flown in from Australia and another from Caribbean. She went for $185K to a friend of the owner who I guess was going to sell her back to him just to keep the bank or anyone from repoing her. When we found out what the buyer planned, owner and buyer having embraced and discussed it, we all applauded him, even the auctioneers. Was my first auction where I wanted something, did not get it and felt good about it.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Unfortunately this logic makes Smack's point exactly. Is it safer (and cheaper) to buy a new or slightly used modern production boat or an old but well regarded "blue water" boat? If all you get in an old boat is a 'hull' then I would say that you are not getting a good deal.

When I bought my boat it was fully capable of sailing across any ocean. And I paid less than a new production boat that would most likely have needed significant upgrades. And I will wager that this boat will be still going some years after that new production boat would be "tired".

I have spent $ on the boat getting new things that I wanted but I have only spent $5K in "repairs" on something my surveyor did not record.

We see people coming here all the time wanting to spend $40K-$60K on a "good used blue water cruising boat" because they don't have $200K to spend on a new boat. On this point I think I agree with Smack, it is a disservice to tell them "sure go ahead get any boat on this here blue water boat list and you will be fine".

As I said, an exaggeration. But for my priorities, the advice was instructive in that it led me to look for a boat with a solidly built hull, keel, rudder, spars, deck, etc. In other words, the things that are not easily or cheaply repairable or replaceable. In hindsight, the only components I have replaced have been for upgrading purposes (electronics, heads, safety gear) vs. on account of failures.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Strong bulkheads, rudders that don't snap off and hole the boat, strong and reliable autopilot, keels that can take a hard grounding and keep going, strong mast and standing rigging, fresh sails, reliable engine, reliable power source(s), etc. etc. These details are not free.

Well some thing on your list, structural, have to be there even if the boat is much discounted. Other things, yes have to be installed, and I budgeted for them when buying my boat. But no way are they worth $100-150K price difference. Heck, I can install brand new rigging, electronics, sails, autopilot and awlgrip her all for about $30-35K give or take. And take the saved $70-100K to the bank (if I had as much to take to the bank) as a cruising kitty.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I don't disagree with what you say. All I was saying is that if a person does not have a $150K+ budget to get an offshore ready boat the next best thing would be finding one which with a little effort and some add'l $$ will become offshore ready. In my experience it's either a question of $$ or time. Those who have $$ but not the time get a ready boat for $150-200K or more. Those of us who have more time than $$ or are willing to invest/spend time and effort can get something for $20-30K, put in another $20-30K and end up with the same thing that someone paid $150K for, we do that. But those different approaches still achieve the same results. And I just cringe when those who themselves spent $100Ks on an offshore boat scare those without that much $$ from buying and outfitting an offshore capable boat for much less.

By the way, speaking of $150-200K. Last year about this time I was at an auction of Swan 47. She was a beauty, sailed by her somewhat semi-famous owner who while away on a world cruise had some financial issues or some such. I was one of the dreamers thinking we can get her for under $100K as her electronics were 10-12 years old, she had some serious engine and gen set issues, etc. Yeah, right. Out of 40+ bidders most fell out after $75K, most of the rest after $100K was passed and only 2-3 guys were bidding to the end, one having flown in from Australia and another from Caribbean. She went for $185K to a friend of the owner who I guess was going to sell her back to him just to keep the bank or anyone from repoing her. When we found out what the buyer planned, owner and buyer having embraced and discussed it, we all applauded him, even the auctioneers. Was my first auction where I wanted something, did not get it and felt good about it.

I think you should be required to bill yourself at your usual rate, ie the money you could have made working the same # of hours at your usual trade, before completing this math. Hundreds of hours of work is not "free", even when done for yourself.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by minaret

I think you should be required to bill yourself at your usual rate, ie the money you could have made working the same # of hours at your usual trade, before completing this math. Hundreds of hours of work is not "free", even when done for yourself.

Would make for a much more realistic analysis since most buyers have neither the time nor expertise.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I reserve the right to amend my set of conditions to a boat that a significant other will be willing to accept too. A 50-something couple is not going to make it far in a Contessa 32. The boat will survive but their relationship will not.

In most cases for the over 50 crowd (I am one of them), I suspect you are right...lol. However, we had not put those parameters in the discussion earlier. Now it comes down to what does that mean that an over 50 couple want?

Your answers will probably be as varied as how long is a piece of string. Some may absolutely need a washer and dryer; that requires infrastructure and space worth many thousands more than those who may not.

However, that is digressing from the discussion of boat capabilities. It is now discussing wants, rather than needs.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Well some thing on your list, structural, have to be there even if the boat is much discounted. Other things, yes have to be installed, and I budgeted for them when buying my boat. But no way are they worth $100-150K price difference. Heck, I can install brand new rigging, electronics, sails, autopilot and awlgrip her all for about $30-35K give or take. And take the saved $70-100K to the bank (if I had as much to take to the bank) as a cruising kitty.

Want a job?


40' boat prices are more like 5k for rigging, 5 for electronics, 20k for a full suit of quality offshore worthy new sails, 5 for the AP, and 15k minimum for a quality paint job.

That's 50k foot in the door price. If you can really do it for 35, tell me how! And remember, you must include a fair wage for your time.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by minaret

I think you should be required to bill yourself at your usual rate, ie the money you could have made working the same # of hours at your usual trade, before completing this math. Hundreds of hours of work is not "free", even when done for yourself.

I did not mean "do it myself" when I said install this or that. And since I enjoy messing around my boat I don't look at it as time wasted which could have been better spent in the office but as enjoyable hobby like painting or sculpture is for others. Also I found that just like with WM and their prices most work can be contracted directly with marine pros at a fraction of the cost bypassing the expensive yards. But usually with same or better results if done at the yard. And most importantly for me, as a result of always tinkering and hands on approach I learned more about my own boats than I would have ever had I kept hiring boatyards for most of the work.

BTW, if I billed myself for the time spent messing on the boat I'd never step on deck. ))

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Exile

Would make for a much more realistic analysis since most buyers have neither the time nor expertise.

Agree. And that's what allows people like me to grab really good deals.