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Old 04-07-2012, 06:11   #16
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

3M News

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Guinness World Record is a trademark of Guinness World Records Limited


I believe the best aproach is screw it , if you fear about core penetration by screws you can fill the holes voids with epoxy , but hey there is life further from 5200 and other popular stuff.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:30   #17
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Along with DenverdOn - the shock loads on such a handhold rail can be enormous especially when you need to grab it when the boat is rolling or being tossed around in rough seas. Glue is just not going to be able to withstand that. It is rare that the "world record" tests involve shock loading, usually they are incredibly smooth slow loading to avoid shock loading.

Even using wood/metal screws into the inner fiberglass layer of a "cored" cabin top is unlikely to withstand real life shock loading more than a few times. Like lifeline stanchions and other deck padeyes, cleats, etc., you need "through-bolting" with some form of backing plate. Imagine the horror and injury when you grab a glued or screwed handhold rail in a rough seas situation and the rail and you end up impacting the edges of interior furnishings/tables, etc.

Through bolting is not difficult and an easy "no-leak" way is to core drill a hole - say 5/8" or 15mm through the cabin top.

Then cover the bottom of the hole with tape and pour in epoxy putty and let cure.

Then drill your machine screw hole down the center of the epoxy plug.

Use fender washers or backing plates and 5200 to bed the machine screws. Solid, safe and no leaks after many years of use (at least mine don't leak).

Best thing I ever (one of . . .) was to put those teak loop handrails along the sides of the cabin top interior and other handy locations. I use them constantly to guide and steady my traverse from one part of the cabin to another when underway or at night when "3-sheets to the wind."
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:31   #18
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Nielpride,
Interesting--thanks for posting.
IMHO, the shock loading is the problem with non-mechanical attachments.
A pedal cycle falling over can bend the 1cm x 2cm pedal arm, and we have all seen the stanchion mysteriously bend under weight load--but try to straighten it out--

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Old 04-07-2012, 09:54   #19
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post

Through bolting is not difficult and an easy "no-leak" way is to core drill a hole - say 5/8" or 15mm through the cabin top.

Then cover the bottom of the hole with tape and pour in epoxy putty and let cure.

Then drill your machine screw hole down the center of the epoxy plug.

Use fender washers or backing plates and 5200 to bed the machine screws. Solid, safe and no leaks after many years of use (at least mine don't leak).

"
Since the OP's rail is being installed in the interior of the boat, your through bolts with backing plates or fender washers will look pretty awful sticking through on deck! The glassed in steel plate I suggested earlier is often an option and will safely take extreme loads.
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Old 05-07-2012, 00:20   #20
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

so As with most things "boat" there is usually more than one way to do it properly. A glassed in steel plate on the inside surface of the cabin top would work just fine if the glassing job is done correctly and is sufficiently thick and large as to provide a strong "capture" of the steel plate. The steel plate could be drilled and tapped prior to being fiberglassed into place. Then only a hole needs to be drilled through the layers of new "glass" to access the tapped hole. Many chainplates on some model boats are "glassed in" to the inner hull surface.

However, I suspect it is a toss up as to whether a raised interior surface where the glassed in steel plate is installed is less awful looking than the smooth round head of a carriage bolt and fender washer on the exterior surface of the cabin top. I did paint mine white so that the carriage bolt head and washer is largely invisible unless you are looking for it.
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Old 05-07-2012, 00:41   #21
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If the liner or interior layup is insufficient to hold the screws, as is often the case, then building up the surface is a good idea. Though glassing is a steel plate sounds rather extreme. I might epoxy on a 100cm wide strip of nice wood or build up a similar strip with a few mm of glass cloth layup. Self tapping screws hold quite well in 'glass. Plugs into the core might work as well.
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:49   #22
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
so As with most things "boat" there is usually more than one way to do it properly. A glassed in steel plate on the inside surface of the cabin top would work just fine if the glassing job is done correctly and is sufficiently thick and large as to provide a strong "capture" of the steel plate. The steel plate could be drilled and tapped prior to being fiberglassed into place. Then only a hole needs to be drilled through the layers of new "glass" to access the tapped hole. Many chainplates on some model boats are "glassed in" to the inner hull surface.

However, I suspect it is a toss up as to whether a raised interior surface where the glassed in steel plate is installed is less awful looking than the smooth round head of a carriage bolt and fender washer on the exterior surface of the cabin top. I did paint mine white so that the carriage bolt head and washer is largely invisible unless you are looking for it.

You install it so the steel plate is under the headliner and hence invisible. Depending on the headliner this can require any one of several different approaches.
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:14   #23
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

The space between the liner and the deck varies between ˝ to 1 inch, sometimes more. If you “feel” that there is space at the locations you want to place the handrails this should be simple and it will work. Epoxy to fibreglass is very strong and the liner will take care of the sideways (shear) load.

1) Use a 1 ˝ hole-saw to cut 3 holes (or 4 depending how many rings) thru the cabin-liner and up to the underside of the deck (definitely not thru the deck!).
2) Cut 1 ˝ inch hard wood dowels to the level of the liner.
3) Rough up the under-deck fibreglass surface + clean up with acetone.
4) Acetone the dowels and epoxy them to the holes and under deck – coat the dowel sides with epoxy to grab the liner as well.
5) Once cured, use #10 wood screws to attach the handhold to the dowels.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:31   #24
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

I'm thinking the teak will split or the bolt will break before a fender washer gets pulled through the cabin top....
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:34   #25
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Since the OP's rail is being installed in the interior of the boat, your through bolts with backing plates or fender washers will look pretty awful sticking through on deck! The glassed in steel plate I suggested earlier is often an option and will safely take extreme loads.
Geez.... I think many of us missed the word "interior". I know I did! Heck, I would just drill and tap for machine screws without going through the exterior skin.or you could install brass threadserts.
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Old 06-07-2012, 00:51   #26
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

As it appears there are many different ways to accomplish the job. And it seems that the type of hull and cabin top can make a serious difference in the techniques used.

Since the OP is asking about the overhead or "cabin roof" that can vary from a cabin top that is solid FRG or a cored cabin top with inner and outer layer of FRG. I have never seen "pans" used to line the inside of a cabin top. But never say never . . .

On the interior surface of the cabin top there may be a cloth/fabric headliner, common in older boats, or the new plastic laminate panels permanently glued into place. Removing a cloth/fabric headliner is no job for the timid as getting it back up again so that it is taught and smooth can be a real challenge. And if the interior of the cabin roof is laminate panels, they cannot be removed.

So you have a variety of solutions based on how the actual "cabin roof" is put together. But I would posit that screwing (stainless steel sheet metal screws) into the inner layer of a cored cabin top would not stand up to the loads that can be imposed on the handhold rails - unless - the inner surface FRG is seriously reinforced with more FRG or embedded metal plates.

However, for simplicity of D-I-Y I would suggest the drilling completely through the cabin top and using the epoxy plugs and machine screws (bolts) with fender washers which can be painted to match the color of the exterior of the cabin top. And of course, you will have to live with a row of them down the exterior of the cabin top.

Choosing the reinforced interior FRG skin would certainly be more aesthetically pleasing but that process requires a lot more time, effort and care to be done properly. So it is up to the OP to decide what is most appropriate for his boat's "cabin roof" configuration and his own D-I-Y skill level. Or hire an experienced shipwright to do the job - which would be my preference for boats with fabric/cloth headliners.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:28   #27
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The best and easiest way to secure a handrail in this situation is to bed in a metal or wood plate into the interior roof. Since There is a gap mentioned of 1"+ between the headliner and the interior cabin roof it is also important that the bedded material protrudes out from the interior cabin top so that when the handrail is attached it doesnt pull the headliner up and make it look ugly.

The best solution for this IMO is

1. Make one piece of wood for each fastener the following size: 2" x 2" x gap distance between healiner and interior cabin roof + 1"

2. Mark on cabin roof the locations of each fastener

3. Trace the piece of wood on the cabin roof centered on the fastener location.

4. Use a small trimming router and rout out the tracing to 1" deep

5. Thicken some epoxy and bed the pieces of wood in the holes. For extra security one could lay glass over as well but it shouldnt be necessary

6. Replace headliner, drill and attach handrail.

The reason for the extra work is that the gap between the headliner if only spanned by a thin dowel or plug cold bend or snap if the handrail is pulled at an angle, which in heavy weather it will be. By making a 2" platform for each fastener to pull the handrail tight to there is no chance the handrail will break.

Please take your handrails as seriously as you would safety equipment like elirbs or liferafts. More life threatening injuries are associated with injuries from falling than being caught in bad weather.

If you cant do the above then either hire someone who can or possibly consider not doing it at all. If there is no handrail them people will instinctively grab for other handholds.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:22   #28
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Hi Everyone! Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I appreciate them all. Through bolting of some sort may very well be the safest and best solution, but the clutter of bolts and screws along the outside cabin top will look horrible. I also like the idea of glassing in a plate, but the ending result will also not look good as the roof has a textured "non-slip" finish. I don't have a picture of the spot where I cant to install the handrail, but maybe the following pic can illustrate the interior cabins roof (Don't mind the mess. I was picking out curtains, and I ended up using two of the one pictured on each side).

As you can see from the pic. There are already through bolts from the outside roof rail on either side of the cabin. I was wondering if I could replace the existing screws with longer ones and through bolt the inside and outside rails to each other.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:39   #29
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingwithSoul View Post
Hi Everyone! Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I appreciate them all. Through bolting of some sort may very well be the safest and best solution, but the clutter of bolts and screws along the outside cabin top will look horrible. I also like the idea of glassing in a plate, but the ending result will also not look good as the roof has a textured "non-slip" finish. I don't have a picture of the spot where I cant to install the handrail, but maybe the following pic can illustrate the interior cabins roof (Don't mind the mess. I was picking out curtains, and I ended up using two of the one pictured on each side).

As you can see from the pic. There are already through bolts from the outside roof rail on either side of the cabin. I was wondering if I could replace the existing screws with longer ones and through bolt the inside and outside rails to each other.
You have a 'glass hull liner, which is worst case scenario for this install. You can't bolt the two handrails to each other because one side needs a nut which will be too big to counterbore into the handrail and bung. I would consider removing the upper handrail and installing a substantial piece of nice timber as a pad for the lower handrail to land on. Then through bolt the upper rail through the pad under the deck. Then install the lower rail on the pad by screwing it into the pad with lag bolts. Maybe 5/4" teak or mahogany? If you radius it nicely and varnish it it will look OK, but it needs to be at least 1" thick. I'd consider living without, this is one of the drawbacks to a hull liner, it's very hard to make additions.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:30   #30
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Re: Teak Handrails, No drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingwithSoul View Post
Hi Everyone! Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I appreciate them all. Through bolting of some sort may very well be the safest and best solution, but the clutter of bolts and screws along the outside cabin top will look horrible. I also like the idea of glassing in a plate, but the ending result will also not look good as the roof has a textured "non-slip" finish. I don't have a picture of the spot where I cant to install the handrail, but maybe the following pic can illustrate the interior cabins roof (Don't mind the mess. I was picking out curtains, and I ended up using two of the one pictured on each side).

As you can see from the pic. There are already through bolts from the outside roof rail on either side of the cabin. I was wondering if I could replace the existing screws with longer ones and through bolt the inside and outside rails to each other.
No doubt about it, it has been done many times and sounds like a great solution if the inside placement is right.
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