Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-12-2010, 19:15   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 679
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I am really curious about the stance of the professional diver-hull-cleaners amd US berthed yacht owners when the next step in environmental protection is taken in the USA... which is a ban on cleaning anti-fouled hulls while in the water. This practice releases much more poisons like copper and chemicals in the environment than cleaning the boat during extra haul-out's where the waste is contained and disposed of in a way that is safe to the environment.
Many years ago, we were banned from careening for cleaning and antifouling because of the toxins released by the process. That was annoying because the club has a couple of sets of careening poles and some excellent drying shoals. It's also a process steeped in nautical tradition. But it's true that our mangrove-lined inlets and creeks are fisheries breeding grounds and keeping them pristine is the best defence against the forces of creeping suburbia. So now we must slip to antifoul and then collect and properly remove all the waste. I've come to think this is good policy.

But it seems strange to me that the practice of an in-the-water scrub contines to be tolerated, because it is much the same thing as careening. Okay, I agree, that there is a difference in scale to a full antifoul while careened but if a diver goes along a row scrubbing every boat, and does it quite regularly, it's arguable that the toxins thus released would be considerable and comparable over time. I wonder if there've been any studies along these lines to inform us.
__________________

__________________
Wand is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 19:28   #77
Registered User
 
bruce smith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: puget sound/ caribbean
Boat: never wrecked a boat while awake or sober
Posts: 330
I wonder the same ting ?
Is OK for a diver to scrub, but not to careen.
Anyway,got my 1 coat of seahawk 44 plus on today, maybe Woodwind will not need another shot next year?
(friday launch)
Edit.... Chap in the boatyard left a 3sq inch piece of said paint on his leg overnight,had a nasty sore today.
Fstbttm, what ARE the alternatives, other than not being lazy n cheap?
__________________

__________________
bruce smith is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 19:50   #78
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by At sea View Post
But it seems strange to me that the practice of an in-the-water scrub contines to be tolerated, because it is much the same thing as careening. Okay, I agree, that there is a difference in scale to a full antifoul while careened but if a diver goes along a row scrubbing every boat, and does it quite regularly, it's arguable that the toxins thus released would be considerable and comparable over time. I wonder if there've been any studies along these lines to inform us.
Studies done in San Diego have shown that in-water hull cleaning does contribute to copper loading. What the most widely accpected study shows is that in Shelter Island Yacht Basin, for instance, aproximately 5% of the copper in the water column is due to in-water hull cleaning activities. Over 90% is due to the passive leaching of copper from anti fouling paints. The rest is naturally ocurring or comes from other sources. However, I know of no studies that show what the long-term effects of this copper loading are. While there is no doubt that many hundreds of water bodies in California are imparied for copper (according to the California Department of Pesticide Regulation and the USEPA), I have seen nothing showing how that affects the local foral and fauna. I do not maintain that copper in the levels we see due to anti fouling paint isn't bad, I'm just saying I seen haven't a study showing that to be the case.
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 19:56   #79
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce smith View Post
Fstbttm, what ARE the alternatives, other than not being lazy n cheap?
What, have I been banging my head against the wall here? Any good high-copper anti fouling is an acceptable alternative. So far the only anecdotes we have seen saying that these paints are ineffective in the Carribean are from the people who use TbT paints!
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:00   #80
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
Sorry, but I can't go along with the implied logic here - I know TBT is a bad thing, but until the whole world bans its use, I don't see why I should stop using it.
Seriously? You know it's the wrong thing to do, you admit as much, but you don't understand why you shouldn't do it? Wow. You have a messed up sense of morality, man.
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:06   #81
Registered User
 
bruce smith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: puget sound/ caribbean
Boat: never wrecked a boat while awake or sober
Posts: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
What, have I been banging my head against the wall here? Any good high-copper anti fouling is an acceptable alternative. So far the only anecdotes we have seen saying that these paints are ineffective in the Carribean are from the people who use TbT paints!
Wrong, my anecdotal evidence is from Trinidad, hard copper. This is only the second time I have used the devil paint. Trinidad was not available here. That is why I started this thread. I've been here 18 years , over the past 36.
__________________
bruce smith is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:10   #82
Registered User
 
bewitched's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 885
Images: 3
fstbttms - You mis-read my post.

Try:

Sorry, but I can't go along with the implied logic of the other poster here

who seems to be saying

"I know TBT is a bad thing, but until the whole world bans its use, I don't see why I should stop using it"


I understand why I shouldn't do it, that's why I don't.
__________________
bewitched is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:12   #83
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce smith View Post
Wrong, my anecdotal evidence is from Trinidad, hard copper. This is only the second time I have used the devil paint.
OK, accepted. But you have an agenda. Let's hear from a few boat owners echoing your sentiments about cleaning frequencies who aren't pimping for the devil paint (and by that I mean; who still use copper-based paint.)
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:15   #84
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
You mis-read my post.

Try:

Sorry, but I can't go along with the implied logic of the other poster here

who seems to be saying

"I know TBT is a bad thing, but until the whole world bans its use, I don't see why I should stop using it"


I understand why I shouldn't do it, that's why I don't.
Gotcha. But I didn't mis-read it, it was not clearly written. The quotation marks would've been nice in the original post.
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:38   #85
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,207
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
OK, accepted. But you have an agenda. Let's hear from a few boat owners echoing your sentiments about cleaning frequencies who aren't pimping for the devil paint (and by that I mean; who still use copper-based paint.)
Sorry... I thought I had... I was using Jotun.. don't know what base it is... but its legal..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now  
Old 07-12-2010, 20:50   #86
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
I think I need antifouling on my deck. It's raining so hard here the barnacles won't be able to tell where the sea ends and the sky begins.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 21:04   #87
Registered User
 
tager's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vashon, WA
Boat: Haida 26', 18' Sea Kayak, 15' kayak, 6.5' skiff, shorts
Posts: 837
fstbttms, you are a strong advocate, but not a tactful one.

I don't care whether your study says that in water hull cleaning is okay or not.

It's obvious that in-water hull cleaning is harmful. I see the toxic plume floating off into the water!
__________________
tager is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 21:13   #88
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,167
Lattitude 48 had an article in which it quoted a study which said over 60% of the copper in Puget Sound is from auto brake shoes. How much more is from ablative paints on comercal ships and ferries was not stated, but I imagine it was most of it.
This is aboput scapegoating cruisers , not solving environmental problems.
I have never found TBTF anywhere near as effective in stopping marine growth as copper paint.
__________________
Brent Swain is offline  
Old 07-12-2010, 21:16   #89
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
fstbttms, you are a strong advocate, but not a tactful one.

I don't care whether your study says that in water hull cleaning is okay or not.

It's obvious that in-water hull cleaning is harmful. I see the toxic plume floating off into the water!
I never said in-water hull cleaning doesn't pollute. In fact, I just cited a study that says it does. But it is a necessary part of boat maintenance. The whole point of divers using Best Management Practices is to minimize the copper that in-water hull cleaning activities introduces into the water and to make the customer's paint last longer. The heart of most BMPs is basically cleaning the boat frequently enough that the gentlest cleaning implement can always be used. Most hull cleaning BMPs also recommend refraining from cleaning ablative paints, which is what is happening when you see a "plume". But understand that the copper (or whatever toxin) that makes your paint work is coming out of that paint and going into the environment 24/7/365, whether you have the boat cleaned or not.
__________________
fstbttms is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 01:34   #90
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
I never said in-water hull cleaning doesn't pollute. In fact, I just cited a study that says it does. But it is a necessary part of boat maintenance. The whole point of divers using Best Management Practices is to minimize the copper that in-water hull cleaning activities introduces into the water and to make the customer's paint last longer. The heart of most BMPs is basically cleaning the boat frequently enough that the gentlest cleaning implement can always be used. Most hull cleaning BMPs also recommend refraining from cleaning ablative paints, which is what is happening when you see a "plume". But understand that the copper (or whatever toxin) that makes your paint work is coming out of that paint and going into the environment 24/7/365, whether you have the boat cleaned or not.
Is it really a necessary part of boat maintenance?

I would have thought it just a cheaper and easier solution than say hauling out and cleaning down on the hard and collecting the residue (assuming the same frequency of in water cleaning).

Surely cleaning by hauling out would be a better practice enviromentally wise, just happens it would be dearer and more inconvenient.

Please note I am not advocating this practice, just pointing out the logic of what can be considered best practice and /or necessary boat maintenance.
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
anti-fouling

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Antifouling in Florida ZolaSail Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 98 01-09-2015 20:01
Antifouling paint BC Mike Construction, Maintenance & Refit 31 13-10-2012 16:06
Antifouling in the Caribbean? seanie20 Atlantic & the Caribbean 18 28-10-2009 08:27
antifouling procedure sonnysoh Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 12-06-2008 06:11
Antifouling Sonosailor Construction, Maintenance & Refit 3 21-12-2003 06:45



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.