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Old 07-12-2010, 08:29   #31
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This goes along the lines of DDT. Just because it works great, doesn’t mean that it is a great idea. People should take their environment into account at all times. It is my water too that you are polluting.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:41   #32
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Hummingway, I DO have a wooden boat (post26)! More rare every year. One of 2 in a boatyard of 200 boats. The beasties WILL do more harm to her.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:46   #33
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Hummingway, I DO have a wooden boat (post26)! More rare every year. One of 2 in a boatyard of 200 boats. The beasties WILL do more harm to her.
NOT justification for using a tin paint. Paint with something less environmentally damaging and clean her more frequently.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:48   #34
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The USEPA has canceled all TBT antifouling paint product registrations; cancellation of the last such registration was effective in December 2005. The effective date is the last date the product can be sold by the registrant.
International Agreements & Treaties | Pesticides | US EPA

* International Convention on the Control of Antifouling Systems on Ships
Another excellent link - When the restrictions were put in place, Organotins (TBT) was placed under the restricted substance-pesticides and anybody handing it had to go to "pesticide school." A lot of stuff about termites and ants and of course, Organotins. Only licensed individuals could purchase and apply or supervise the applications of TBT paints and dispose of the left-over product. It was a yearly license and when I sailed off to the Caribbean in 2004, obviously I had no need to renew the license which required classroom attendance.
- - I have personally seen what organotins (TBT) does to shellfish and the result is too disgusting to eat. That effectively shuts down the shellfish market in areas of organotin pollution. So I am personally in favor of the ban just as I am favor of the MSD objectives to clean up the waters.
- - But just like the various threads on other pollution problems worldwide and domestically, it seems there are too many "exceptions" for the rich and powerful and governments and only us little guys get "restricted/banned."
- - And the great link is also clear that only signatories to the treaty voluntarily or are coerced into banning the use of organotins (TBT). It would be interesting to see if they removed the "exemptions" for large vessels and commercial shipping and the military from the latest version of the treaty.
- - China and other countries that are not signatories to the treaty are still making millions producing and selling the product.
- - So as one poster or more has said, it is really a personal "moral" decision to use or not to use organotin (TBT) paints. In controlled countries you cannot purchase it but in the rest of the world it is there on the store shelf. And in the case of Islands 44 - "Made in the USA."
- - And from the link - "The United States played a leadership role in drafting the treaty, but has not yet ratified the agreement.. "
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:56   #35
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Many of us overseas, 'specially in the Caribbean, can still buy TBT paint.
Your Thoughts?
The problem with TBT is that it didn't just keep the bottoms clean. It was sterilizing whole ecosystems. Those of us who have been around for a while can certainly comment on the change we've seen in marinas since TBT was banned. There was a time when you'd never see small anchovy-size fish in any of the larger marinas in SF Bay. Now you'll see them in every marina. I was sitting in my cockpit last weekend in Sausalito watching three different types of birds feeding--loon, grebe and cormorant--right there in the basin. That wasn't happening in the TBT days.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:59   #36
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I was sitting in my cockpit last weekend in Sausalito watching three different types of birds feeding--loon, grebe and cormorant--right there in the basin. That wasn't happening in the TBT days.
Never used to see larger animals like sea lions, harbor seals and pelicans earning a living in Bay Area marinas either. Very common sight now.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:15   #37
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Never used to see larger animals like sea lions, harbor seals and pelicans earning a living in Bay Area marinas either. Very common sight now.
you've got that right. Here's a picture I took from my slip last year. It's a newborn harbor seal. Note that the eyes are not yet open and the umbilical cord is still attached.

Now what was that about the morality of TBT?
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:33   #38
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you've got that right. Here's a picture I took from my slip last year. It's a newborn harbor seal. Note that the eyes are not yet open and the umbilical cord is still attached.
Probably as much to do with local gun ownership restrictions..........
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:45   #39
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I think the point is made- certain boaters will defend the use of TbT anti fouling paint regardless of any attendant moral, legal or environmental issues. One here (at least) justifies his use of it because China still produces it!

Still shocking to me that some people put their own laziness and selfishness ahead of every other consideration.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:46   #40
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Continuing the thread drift to sea lions/seals and other things here is a rather opposite view of those cute marine mammals when they become "too present" or perceived as a threat to a fisherman's job.

Metroactive | Seals vs. Fish

Also what do you do when your boat is "hijacked" by the "cute critters."
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:52   #41
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But back on subject of TBT - -
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. . . Still shocking to me that some people put their own laziness and selfishness ahead of every other consideration.
I think that is a very valid and true statement - and - large corporations, wealthy people, politicians, and governments are certainly high up on the list (if not at the top) of those "some people." I vaguely remember something in the Constitutional system of the USA about "equal treatment under the law . . ." I wonder what ever happened to that?
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:58   #42
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Still shocking to me that some people put their own laziness and selfishness ahead of every other consideration.
Not really surprising to me that some people try to impose their own "higher" morality onto others - especially when involving a few quid / dollars moving from the pockets of others to self. But it has always been thus
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:00   #43
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I vaguely remember something in the Constitutional system of the USA about "equal treatment under the law . . ." I wonder what ever happened to that?
What difference does that make? You don't keep your boat in the States (where TbT paints are banned) and have used that fact to defend your use of TbT paints. So you don't get to throw up the Constitution as proof of as how unfair a TbT ban is. You can't have it both ways. What you advocate is wrong and you know it. Man up and own it.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:07   #44
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Not really surprising to me that some people try to impose their own "higher" morality onto others - especially when involving a few quid / dollars moving from the pockets of others to self. But it has always been thus
Your point is poorly made. TbT is more damaging to the environment than other commonly available and effective anti fouling paints. This is proven. Therefore there can be no arguement that its continued use is wrong.

As far as your insuation that I stand to earn more because of the TbT ban, I will point out that TbT paints have been illegal for use on most pleasure craft in this country (certainly in the size range that I service) since long before I ever began working in the hull cleaning industry. Whether or not anybody chooses to do the right thing as far as TbT paints are concerned has no bearing on my income.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:31   #45
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I think the point is made- certain boaters will defend the use of TbT anti fouling paint regardless of any attendant moral, legal or environmental issues. One here (at least) justifies his use of it because China still produces it!

Still shocking to me that some people put their own laziness and selfishness ahead of every other consideration.
Still shocking to me that some people will preach from a "holier than thou" pulpit, without attempting to understand another person's POV.

From a more thread-specific standpoint, it is still shocking to me that the TBT ban is entirely appropriate in places of high boat populations and enclosed harbors like San Francisco, Baltimore, Seattle, etc, etc, etc, while a TBT ban may not be appropriate in other locations. "One size fits all", does not always fit.

In the more open harbors typically found in the Caribbean, the cumulative effects of TBT may not be as severe as the more frequent scrubbing of a less effective copper-based bottom paint where each scrubbing places a higher concentration of toxic chemicals into the water, and YES, virtually all the chemicals used for bottom paint are toxic.

Before passing judgement, I would invite you to spend several seasons in the Caribbean doing the "more frequent" scrubbing that the highest quality non-TBT paints would require (aka every 2 - 3 days).

Yes, my view is also colored by my pocketbook as the highest quality non-TBT paints are expensive, not very effective, and must be frequently re-applied (making them even more expensive).

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