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Old 08-12-2014, 13:39   #31
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Thanks for being one of the brave to experiment with this.

What do you think the advantages are, and what are the potential down falls? The first thing I would be worried about is UV, but then I don't know the specs on the product.
It has been around and used in standing and running rigging for a long time-well proven.
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Old 08-12-2014, 13:53   #32
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Really??? Seems pretty radical statement considering +/- 90% of the sailboats on the water are using SS 1X19 for their standing rigging and most of the rest are using SS rod.

I use Staloks and keep a spare piece of wire on the boat so can also repair or replace rigging anywhere and don't have to worry about stretching.

Dyneema could be an excellent option for standing rigging but I think it's a bit much to wholesale condemn SS. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I wonder if similar statements were made in 1950 about fiberglass vs wood for sailboats
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Old 08-12-2014, 15:09   #33
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

John, I'll probably be looking at your products come the next 12-18 mo to change rigging. It's definitely attractive for the loss of weight, I just need to compare sta-locks to your fittings price wise. I'm sure they are comparable, but I'd still like to be informed. But I definitely like doing things differently and would love to do this, and it's just as diy as the sta-locks. I watched your videos on brummel splices, I'm pretty sure I can do it. I'm pretty handy with splices and take pride in marlinspike work.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 18-12-2014, 20:20   #34
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Craig and John ....I have a 14 m cat rigged with dux on inners and caps - if anything it is oversized and has professionally made covers so virtually no uv degradation or abrasion. We have lashings at the bottom which have been replaced ...had a rig check 2 years ago ( with load tests ) and it came out fine- my question is - how long do you think dux can be relied upon before needing replacement if it is well protected...?
Appreciate your thoughts
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Old 18-12-2014, 20:53   #35
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Hi Paul

I'll leave that one to John for a definitive figure but indications are that it should be good for at least 8-10 years out of the tropics. It may even be good for that time in the tropics. UV is the issue there. I think John is expecting more as test data becomes available. I would suspect if it is fully covered the much longer could be expected, maybe 20 years???
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Old 18-12-2014, 22:03   #36
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Thanks Craig - would love to think it would last 20 years but don't think any rigging lasts that long? Insurance would probably insist on it being replaced before then or possibily refuse cover - we have a carbon mast which I would hate to lose!
I would be comfortable with 10 - 12 and anything over that would be even better - obviously it is bit of major to replace so don't want to go through that exercise if it is still has life...
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Old 20-12-2014, 11:59   #37
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Yea.. I've not heard of a synthetic forestay/furler combo yet... What was your original D1 1x19 size, and to what size Dux? My D1's are massive 14mm, and not sure of the asthetics if barge cable diameters are required!

Bravo on the work BTW!
Colligo now is selling a synthetic forestay/furler combo to replace the standard jib/genoa furler. On their website check out the blog page as I don't think it is yet mentioned in their product menu.

Had CC Rigging here in San Diego replace the standing rigging on Crazy Fish with Dyneema Dux using Colligo fittings about 18 months ago. The forestay is still SS with a Harken fuller but the rest is Dux. Everything is holding up well.

Anyone with experience of threaded a wire up the inside of backstay to function as a SSB/Ham antenna ?

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Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37 | SV Crazy Fish
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Old 20-12-2014, 21:11   #38
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

A curious question, not that it's anything resembling a deal breaker. However, has anyone who's gone this route noticed a quantifiable windage difference? Be it going to windward, @ anchor, or "other".
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Old 20-12-2014, 23:44   #39
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Some of the ultra high performance boats have switched back to wire to reduce windage. Some of the moth fleet, I think some of the Aussie 18 skiffs, basically the super high performance boats seem to think that the windage gain is worth the weight trade off. Keep in mind that these boats are also reducing rigging size to the bare minimums so part of the calculus is which option comes in a size closest to the ideal.

On the Corsair I haven't noticed any difference from the windage. In fact, other than while tuning the boat, and while putting up (or down) the rig I really haven't noticed any difference in the boat at all. Maybe a little bit quieter at anchor with the dyneema, but that's about it.

The weigt reduction while rigging however is pretty substantial, and absolutely noticeable.
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Old 21-12-2014, 02:39   #40
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Is this put in serial application professionally in any size of boat?
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Old 21-12-2014, 03:33   #41
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Is it completely covered so the UV cannot break down the dux? If so.. why would it wear out? It should last as long as a fibreglass hull.

Even if not covered, like kevlar, the UV weakens the outside layer, but there is still plenty of strength inside, so it likely will last for a very long time, at least 20 year uncovered.

I have had mine for 5 years and it looks like new still.

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Some of the ultra high performance boats have switched back to wire to reduce windage. Some of the moth fleet, I think some of the Aussie 18 skiffs, basically the super high performance boats seem to think that the windage gain is worth the weight trade off. Keep in mind that these boats are also reducing rigging size to the bare minimums so part of the calculus is which option comes in a size closest to the ideal.
Is this with rod rigging?
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Old 21-12-2014, 07:48   #42
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

One new 'risk' with dyneema has been identified - "Burn thru" - where a sheet is let run and it is bearing against a dyneema shroud or lifeline - it can (and has) cut right thru the dyneema.

There is some testing going on right now to put some parameters against this risk, and identify possible mitigating best practices. But in the meantime, I might suggest anyone with dyneema shrouds think about putting protective tubing on them where a sheet might run (the same sort of tubes that are often used on wire for the reverse purpose - to protect the sheet from the wire).
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Old 22-12-2014, 17:03   #43
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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I will be replacing everything except the forestay as I think the roller furled might be a bit savage on the Dux...

...Yes I have the B&R rig but with a backstay. I hope to thread the HF radio wire antenna inside the backstay.
Nice work, I have enjoyed reading about your project.

Lately, as I have been contemplating my own future rigging projects, I have been considering making a switch to twin backstays and it seems like Dyneema would be well suited to the task.

I wonder if you have given twin backstays any consideration?

Of course it means adding chainplates, but would seem to offer a couple nice advantages besides a level of redundancy, although I'm not exactly sure how to have true redundancy at the masthead. I have only a single swaged ball fitting (Isomat) but maybe there's a way. Or maybe splitting a single connection is good enough?

Any thoughts? Anyone?
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:29   #44
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Is this put in serial application professionally in any size of boat?
Corsair Trimarans switched a few years ago on their boats. I know of a few custom boats that had it done new, but I don't know of any other manufacturer that is using it standard other than Corsair.



Alexandra,

frankly keeping up with the ultra performance boats is just too much work. They are all playing with new materials every week. But right now I think everyone has switched to carbon rod, PBO, or stainless wire. Carbon is prefered for weight and size, but it is temperamental stuff and doesn't bend. The PBO is a slight step down in terms of performance (an extra 25 grams per sta) and the wire is even heavier at 130 grams a side. But the wire is really forgiving where the others aren't. Dux isn't really available in this size, so you have to go up to I think 2mm which is too strong and thus too heavy.

Keep in mind at this size 1.5mm or so, getting the right size can be difficult just because no one makes product X in that size.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:44   #45
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Lately, as I have been contemplating my own future rigging projects, I have been considering making a switch to twin backstays and it seems like Dyneema would be well suited to the task.

I wonder if you have given twin backstays any consideration?

Of course it means adding chainplates, but would seem to offer a couple nice advantages besides a level of redundancy, although I'm not exactly sure how to have true redundancy at the masthead. I have only a single swaged ball fitting (Isomat) but maybe there's a way. Or maybe splitting a single connection is good enough?

Any thoughts? Anyone?

As to how to rig for twin, redundant backstays @ the masthead, here's one idea. It's to some degree borrowed from Searunner Trimarans

For backstay #1, you would use your current attachment point for the stay.

Then for the 2nd one, perhaps 6" or 1' down from the masthead, drill the mast tube transversely for the proper sized bolt (one, strong enough, fully, for an independent backstay). Followed by inserting a compression tube into the hole. And then welding double plates in place over the tube. With the appropriate holes for the new bolt machined into the plates.

From the bolt, run tangs aft, from both sides of the spar, & have them bent (and fastened together) so that they meet in mid-air not far behind the mast. These tangs having holes machined into their aft ends. Such that one can insert a clevis pin with a toggle affixed. To which, the 2nd backstay would be connected.

As a twist, on Searunners Trimarans, both of the tangs are pre-twisted 90 degrees, such that they wind up meeting, & overlapping, with the holes for the pin + toggle, being in the vertical plane. IE; Perpendicular to the one which the bolt through the masthead is in.

Hopefully this makes sense, well enough (I'm a bit under-caffeinated @ the moment ;-) For clarity's sake I'd post a pic or sketch of how the simple, yet elegant setups on Searunners look. However, I don't have a scanner.
Perhaps another forumite might be kind enough to assist with such?
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