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Old 06-12-2014, 18:01   #16
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

What kind of connections do you have on your mast? I have stemball sockets on my Isomat, just wondering how/what you are splicing the dux to. I would think a eye splice around a clevis would be quite a tight bend..

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 06-12-2014, 18:32   #17
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
What kind of connections do you have on your mast? I have stemball sockets on my Isomat, just wondering how/what you are splicing the dux to. I would think a eye splice around a clevis would be quite a tight bend..

- Ronnie...on the geaux
Both ends are eye spliced on cast 316 thimbles (see my first post for image). At the deck they are finished with toggle/toggle turnbuckles, at the spreaders they are finished in stemball/toggles. I sourced stem balls with male thread to mate with female threaded toggles. I used "Locktight" (anaerobic thread locker) to secure the threads together. Rope rigging does not have the torque (twist moment) that 1x19 wire has when loaded as it is braided not spiral wound, therefore will not try to undo threaded fittings.
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Old 06-12-2014, 18:42   #18
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

On further searching, I found Colligo sells stemball to dux adapters. And also, sell end fittings for the splices.

Stemball adapters
http://www.colligomarine.com/product...s-and-adapters

Splice end fittings
http://www.j15.colligomarine.org/pro...r-end-fittings

Chainplate distributors
http://www.j15.colligomarine.org/pro...e-distributors

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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Old 06-12-2014, 18:56   #19
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Both ends are eye spliced on cast 316 thimbles (see my first post for image). At the deck they are finished with toggle/toggle turnbuckles, at the spreaders they are finished in stemball/toggles. I sourced stem balls with male thread to mate with female threaded toggles. I used "Locktight" (anaerobic thread locker) to secure the threads together. Rope rigging does not have the torque (twist moment) that 1x19 wire has when loaded as it is braided not spiral wound, therefore will not try to undo threaded fittings.
Ah, yea the pictures didn't load when I initially opened the thread.. I'm on the ships slow Internet. Great, yes I found some stuff from Colligo marine. Where did you source your stemball fittings?

I also saw they had dux end fittings, more sophisticated thimble to accept a clevis. Are your eyes one piece or split like a typical thimble?

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 06-12-2014, 18:59   #20
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
On further searching, I found Colligo sells stemball to dux adapters. And also, sell end fittings for the splices.

Stemball adapters
Brackets and Adapters - Colligo Marine - Synthetic Rigging

Splice end fittings
Synthetic Systems - Colligo Marine - Synthetic Rigging

Chainplate distributors
Synthetic Systems - Colligo Marine - Synthetic Rigging

- Ronnie...on the geaux


- Ronnie...on the geaux

Colligio would be a good source of fittings etc. for those in the US, but for us in Australia the freight is a bit severe from the US. The Colligio gear is "state of the art" and a lot of it is very light weight, if that is where you want to go. I saved about 20% of the total weight by going with the Dux and S/S fittings, but the stays were only 5m long so not a lot of wire was replaced. If you went alloy fittings and lashings, considerable weight savings could be had. I expect to save a lot more weight when I replace the longer stays. For me the weight savings is an ancillary benefit, not my main objective.
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Old 06-12-2014, 19:10   #21
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Great, yes I found some stuff from Colligo marine. Where did you source your stemball fittings?

I also saw they had dux end fittings, more sophisticated thimble to accept a clevis. Are your eyes one piece or split like a typical thimble?

- Ronnie...on the geaux
The stemball fittings come from a mob in New Zealand - Sea Rig via a local agent in Australia. They make fittings for the NZ America Cup teams. I thought the Sea Rig gear would be expensive but it was comparable (a little cheaper) to the Colligio gear, with freight included.

The thimbles are closed cast 316.
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Old 07-12-2014, 00:21   #22
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Originally Posted by 40 South View Post
Colligio would be a good source of fittings etc. for those in the US, but for us in Australia the freight is a bit severe from the US. The Colligio gear is "state of the art" and a lot of it is very light weight, if that is where you want to go. I saved about 20% of the total weight by going with the Dux and S/S fittings, but the stays were only 5m long so not a lot of wire was replaced. If you went alloy fittings and lashings, considerable weight savings could be had. I expect to save a lot more weight when I replace the longer stays. For me the weight savings is an ancillary benefit, not my main objective.
Oh got ya, yea that's understandable. Yea, I think they Colligo gear is a bit more than the stalock fittings for cable. I'd have to look. I will need my rig changed next year's end. I know I'd save weight, my 4 stays to the mast head are at least 65 ft at 7/16 and 1/2 ". Plus the two going to the second spreader, then two to the lowers. A Staysail stay and a baby stay to finish it off. Most is 7/16", and all fittings are old swag's.. I think I could get at least 25 percent weight savings.

Would this in the long run be cheaper even at 10 year replacement because you would only need to replace the dux as the fittings will be had already? Cable to dux price comparison minus fittings that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 South View Post
The stemball fittings come from a mob in New Zealand - Sea Rig via a local agent in Australia. They make fittings for the NZ America Cup teams. I thought the Sea Rig gear would be expensive but it was comparable (a little cheaper) to the Colligio gear, with freight included.

The thimbles are closed cast 316.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:15   #23
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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I know I'd save weight, my 4 stays to the mast head are at least 65 ft at 7/16 and 1/2 ". Plus the two going to the second spreader, then two to the lowers. A Staysail stay and a baby stay to finish it off. Most is 7/16", and all fittings are old swag's.. I think I could get at least 25 percent weight savings.

Would this in the long run be cheaper even at 10 year replacement because you would only need to replace the dux as the fittings will be had already? Cable to dux price comparison minus fittings that is.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
My Hunter 40 sailed out from the US in the early 2000's, probably around 2001. had a re-rig in NZ in 2002 and was sold in Australia in 2005 to the previous owner I purchased her from. I suspect the 2002 1x19 wire was probably her 3rd rig. So say a re-rig @ 8/10 years? another @ 6/8 years (before the Pacific crossing) and another @ 12 years (now).

You can't cross the Pacific in a Hunter………..I can here the cries from here!!!!!

If you went with all S/S fittings I would think they could safely be kept for 3 or 4 changes of the Dux before there were concerns regarding it's serviceability.

With wire and swages the swaged fittings are replaced with the wire at each rig change. I had to replace the mast fittings due to the stemballs being swaged to the wire and a change in termination of the stay (eye splice to a thimble). I changed the turnbuckles too as they were the original chrome plated brass, 28 years old. The S/S thimbles were significantly cheaper than the Colligio alloy ones. The 11mm Dux was AU$22/meter retail here in Australia. I have a contact in the rigging game but he was overseas and I needed to do these two stays now. I will be seeking to get the price of the Dux down for the remaining stays. That said, even at retail rates the cost was comparable to 1x19 wire for the whole job.

Weight savings using all S/S fittings is not as as high as if you used alloy but the penalty would be cost. Lashings at the chainplates would save more weight and $$. The weight penalty for me was the stemball/toggle combination at the spreaders (but it was an easy job to fit with no modifications necessary). The new turnbuckles were comparable to the old ones.

It's all about $$$, time and compromises.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:58   #24
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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I will be replacing everything except the forestay as I think the roller furled might be a bit savage on the Dux. I had to do the D1's (deck to under 1st spreaders) now as one of the swages in the 1x19 wire had a 50mm crack and the insurance company wouldn't cover the rig while sailing or using the sails! The rest will be replaced mid next year.

Yes I have the B&R rig but with a backstay. I hope to thread the HF radio wire antenna inside the backstay.
Yea.. I've not heard of a synthetic forestay/furler combo yet... What was your original D1 1x19 size, and to what size Dux? My D1's are massive 14mm, and not sure of the asthetics if barge cable diameters are required!

Bravo on the work BTW!
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:45   #25
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

D1's were 3/8" 1x19 S/S wire. I went to 11mm Dux as a replacement. The Dux is fairly chunky (22mm) at the splice, but you only notice the lower ends. Once they are all done I don't think it will be noticeable as there will not be S/S wire to compare to. The D1's are my largest stays (except for the forestay which is also 3/8'' but you can't see that under the furler & foil). The rest range from 5/16" down to 1/4" so the Dux will not look much different at those sizes.

14mm would probably be changed out for 15mm Dux. (Please seek professional advice, this is just my opinion). The final diameter of this size Dux (at the splice) would be about 30mm with just over a meter bury. The taper would start at around 500mm into the bury.

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:11   #26
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

Craig,

Great thoughts... Thanks for all the posting effort!
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:35   #27
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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14mm would probably be changed out for 15mm Dux. (Please seek professional advice, this is just my opinion). The final diameter of this size Dux (at the splice) would be about 30mm with just over a meter bury. The taper would start at around 500mm into the bury.

Thanks
Great job on rigging your boat and kudos for you on doing this yourself as we think this is the greatest benefit of this type of rigging.

A B&R rig has a good amount of pretension, more so than most rigs. They are doable and we have rigged several of them to date. You need to make sure you size the line for creep. We user pretension for our creep numbers as this is the load that the rig will see 95% of the time. Our target is .1" per year (10 years gets 1 inch) as a maximum. This has worked very well for us on the 750 boats we have rigged to date as we have had no creep issues.

See the attached chart on creep on 11 mm line for about a 21 foot length. If you can keep the pretension to about 2300 lbs or less that you will be under our target of 0.1" per year. Creep is exponential with load so you have to be careful.

Most rigs do not have such high pretension so creep is much easier to overcome.

The other thing you want to look at is stretch and there are equivalent stretch charts on our site as well under Colligo Dux.

Pretension is important also, Lashings are limited in the amount of pretension that you can get so turnbuckles should be used on boats over 30 feet.

Dux is a different rigging material than steel and we just want to make sure everyone is doing this correctly so they will not have any issues. As with any new technologies, there are alot of naysayers out there and we do not want to give them any more reasons to say this can't be done!

John Franta, Colligo Marine
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:04   #28
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Old 08-12-2014, 09:12   #29
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Old 08-12-2014, 12:18   #30
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Re: Synthetic Rigging

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Great job on rigging your boat and kudos for you on doing this yourself as we think this is the greatest benefit of this type of rigging.

A B&R rig has a good amount of pretension, more so than most rigs. They are doable and we have rigged several of them to date. You need to make sure you size the line for creep. We user pretension for our creep numbers as this is the load that the rig will see 95% of the time. Our target is .1" per year (10 years gets 1 inch) as a maximum. This has worked very well for us on the 750 boats we have rigged to date as we have had no creep issues.

See the attached chart on creep on 11 mm line for about a 21 foot length. If you can keep the pretension to about 2300 lbs or less that you will be under our target of 0.1" per year. Creep is exponential with load so you have to be careful.

Most rigs do not have such high pretension so creep is much easier to overcome.

The other thing you want to look at is stretch and there are equivalent stretch charts on our site as well under Colligo Dux.

Pretension is important also, Lashings are limited in the amount of pretension that you can get so turnbuckles should be used on boats over 30 feet.

Dux is a different rigging material than steel and we just want to make sure everyone is doing this correctly so they will not have any issues. As with any new technologies, there are alot of naysayers out there and we do not want to give them any more reasons to say this can't be done!

John Franta, Colligo Marine
Thanks John, I appreciate advice from someone that has experience in the field.

I developed an excel spreadsheet to compare the working loads that Hunter published and the loads associated with Dux. Hunter call the working load on their 1x19 wire at 20% of breaking strain. I sized the Dux for a load of around for 10% breaking strain of the Dux to minimise the creep. For example 3/8' 1x19 wire @ 20% BS is 1343 kg, therefore I went for 11mm Dux @1660 kg BS. (These are figures I have found on the internet and may vary slightly with manufacturer. They are close enough for sizing of the Dux).

I hope this discussion helps someone else get the courage to give Dux a go. So far my experience has been good!
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