Steel monohull keel issue: cement-filled, rust - urgent problem?

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

Cement have been used for ballast , it's not the perfect but is a cheap solution .

Wibo boats tend to heel a lot so maybe that's why the previous owner wanted more ballast .
If you plan to keep the boat for long time is better if you remove the cement and replace it with lead or cast iron.

The rust is always a problem.and you need to measure the thickness of the plates through I don't thing it's an issue of lossing the keel.on a steel boat .

Love this response. I would implore you to look at the results of the PBO piece on this issue where in fact it was found that metal boats were far and away the most common types to lose their keels. Especially those built outside reputable yards.

It's funny how in life that thing we assume to be true, as in production boats with bolt on keels being the sufferers of lost keels, turns out to be very inaccurate when put put to the test. I would not consider this a cheap boat as stated by the poster until a reputable surveyor was willing to put their name and reputation on the line saying so. This vessel has the unenviable title of far from cheap until such a time.

[RaymondR]

I've never heard nor read of a steel boat with a welded on keel losing it and I suspect that one would be so rust ridden and holey as to no longer float before it would happen.

Reasonable quality ultrasonic thickness testers can be purchased for less than $200 these days and since steel is an "honest" material a UT survey will give reliable answers as to the condition of the steel.

I would hazard a guess from the other parts of the steel hull which can be seen in the images that the rest of the boat will be in good condition and may provide a good sound vessel provided the corrosion problems related to the keel are overcome.

[GrowleyMonster]

I wouldn't touch it. There are other boats for sale.

[GordMay]

Corrosion of reinforcing steel and other embedded metals is the leading cause of deterioration in concrete. When steel corrodes, the resulting rust occupies a greater volume than the steel. This expansion creates tensile stresses in the concrete, which can eventually cause cracking, delamination, and spalling.
More ➥ https://www.cement.org/learn/concret...dded-materials

[wanderlust86]

Thanks for all the responses, this thread is becoming quite rich with information already.

Now I'm wondering: at which price point would you put that boat, considering good maintenance but rusty keel? It's 8,5 meters.

This would be a first boat, not the boat of a lifetime, so at this moment safety is all I'm concerned about. I wouldn't use it for racing or the like, just cruising around leisurely. I'm 32 right now, on a sabbatical (no income, plenty of time), so hopefully I'll get the time and money for a bigger one later on in life. Now a boat this size, and one that does not sink, is about all I need. It's located in the Netherlands and I would sail it (together with 1-2 more) into the Med in late spring/early summer.

These days I'll have another call with the broker and possibly with the owner to get more details regarding what you all suggested.

All the best,
Elio

[gmakhs]

Originally Posted by wanderlust86

Thanks for all the responses, this thread is becoming quite rich with information already.

Now I'm wondering: at which price point would you put that boat, considering good maintenance but rusty keel? It's 8,5 meters.

This would be a first boat, not the boat of a lifetime, so at this moment safety is all I'm concerned about. I wouldn't use it for racing or the like, just cruising around leisurely. I'm 32 right now, on a sabbatical (no income, plenty of time), so hopefully I'll get the time and money for a bigger one later on in life. Now a boat this size, and one that does not sink, is about all I need. It's located in the Netherlands and I would sail it (together with 1-2 more) into the Med in late spring/early summer.

These days I'll have another call with the broker and possibly with the owner to get more details regarding what you all suggested.

All the best,
Elio

Ι have seen this design sailing from Holland to canaries , through it will get you to the med and you will enjoy vecation there , rust is gonna be your primary concern.
The boat heels a lot (that's why they added extra ballast )
She is not a great sailer both of the boats I have seen had a wooden mast which I see as a con
Now if she is well build and you do some DUI you can probably get her up to good standards .

Most important is to measure the hull thickness doesn't matter how good it might look steer deteriorates and becomes thinner the last thing you want is to do replanking on a boat you don't plan to keep forever .

I like steel because it can ground multiple times without the issues of fun keel fiberglass boats but apart of that a fiberglass boat might offer you less maintenance and maybe more space inside as well (look beneteau first 29 ) or westerlies .

[hpeer]

THE BELOW IS ABSOLUTLY WRONG. IT IS AN OFF REPEATED MYTH THAT NEEDS TO DIE. Yes, I’m shouting. I’m really tired of this misinformation being repeated.

I would implore you to look at the results of the PBO piece on this issue where in fact it was found that metal boats were far and away the most common types to lose their keels.

The PBO article has a poorly worded sentence that some folks take entirely out of context. What the article was STEEL KEELS ON PLASTIC RACING BOATS. These are bolted on keels that fail because of the keel bolts fail. IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH STEEL HULLED BOATS ANS WELDED ON KEELS.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Corrosion of reinforcing steel and other embedded metals is the leading cause of deterioration in concrete. When steel corrodes, the resulting rust occupies a greater volume than the steel. This expansion creates tensile stresses in the concrete, which can eventually cause cracking, delamination, and spalling.
More ➥ https://www.cement.org/learn/concret...dded-materials

That’s all true, but is likely irrelevant to this issue. Of all the steel boats I’ve looked at I’ve see ONE where this was an issue. Concrete is used to coat the ballast because it tends to keep rust down. At one time it was common for steel boats to carry hydraulic cement to make temporary patches.

IF this was the case then you would see expansion in the keel. It should be looked for but is highly unlikely.

[hpeer]

RE: Ultrasound surveys. I’ve had quite a few done, they have NEVER found a bad spot. Ultrasounds are typically done on a grid pattern. No more than 1 foot spacing. They only measure the metal thickness of a spot about the size of a pencil eraser. So they will tell you what the thickness of your plate is. You could have a rust spot 1/2 inch away, all the way through, and you would never know. These surveys are OK, but actually tell you very little.

Boats tend to rust in small spots. At the internsection of a rib and stringer for example. Under a sink. That kind of thing. A proper survey is done with a good torch, hammer, screwdriver, lots of time, and a bad attitude. It needs to be done from the INSIDE, with additional investigation of suspect points from the outside. If you have a suspect spot you want to investigate then by all means use an ultrasound.

I have seen rust spots as small as a 1/4 inch in otherwise good steel. They aren’t hard to fix. But you won’t find them with ultrasound unless you are damn lucky.

I’ve had surveyors, that I didn’t use, insist on grinding off all my bottom paint down to the bare Steel to take a reading. Great, then I have to go back and repair all those spots with 2 part epoxy x 2 or 3, then apply the anti foul. No thanks. Not necessary.

If you do use ultrasound you can take a half dozen shots over your paint and get an idea of what you should be reading. Then if you get an different reading you can investigate. The better surveyors I’ve used have done this method.