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Old 25-08-2018, 19:58   #1
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Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

I apologize for the length of this post. I am new to posting, and after writing this I realized I do not know how to add pictures. Which would have helped a lot. Im hoping to help, myself included, all those who are struggling with steel hull insulation. I read everything I can find on insulation for steel hulls. The one thing I discovered is there are many many "opinions". I admit that I am as of yet, still undecided on what road I will take, but I did learn a lot from dismantling my 36 year old Swedish built boat. Some history... Boat was built by 4, 20 something year old Swedes with varied sailing experience. I believe one had a father who built steel boats,(helpful) one had a famous racing father, (also helpful) and the other two just loved to sail. Apparently they decided to build a boat to sail around the world with the hope to sell after to finance the whole thing, which they did. My experience with these types of builds is corners get cut to save money since "long term" ownership is not a concern. What I found proves that again, but not in the way I normally see it. These guys built (had built) a great hull. Welding was first class, hull is beautiful with no fairing, and the carpentry was impressive (even though it was never designed to be simply taken apart) . Where they saved money was things like INSULATION. Bet you were wondering when I was going to get to that... They used everything they could find. Styrofoam, rubber mat, rock wool, carpet underlayment and glass bats. They knew, or were told, no insulation below the water line, because there was none. What I found dismantling her was very interesting and contradicts many of the things I've read. Some important information to know as well, is another area they saved money, was the windows. Plastic, and every one leaked. Those leaks soaked much of the insulation. Another consideration to keep in mind when considering how this all played out, was the hull was constructed using the skip frame method (A Bruce Roberts thing) where every other rib is missing, which makes the boat lighter, and it apparently works great since there is plenty of evidence the hull has had its share of hard hits to the dock with no hull deformities. To create nailers for the copious amount of teak, swedish pine 2x2 with the ends filled were wedged between the ribs horizontally which created a dam to hold water below the windows. Even after a month on the hard, far from the coast in 100 degree weather, those areas still had wet insulation and the pine was saturated. One last piece of this puzzle that is important is the hull paint. It was minimal, maybe two light coats of epoxy. That should paint a pretty good picture of things right? Well, I was very surprised. Those wet bats, which were packed tightly between hull and teak panels, did not cause any rust. Where the rust does exist, and there is a lot of rust, is where the glue was used to tack the bats in place. I admit, that I do not know what the glue was, but it appears to have had a chemical reaction with the paint. Everywhere that the glue was used, is rust. There are some areas where no glue was used, and I removed wet insulation, and found no rust at all. This was the same for the underlayment which I could wring out. The rubber mat and the styrofoam were used under the lids and sikaflex or like was used to hold them in place. No rust there. Areas where the real rust problems exist are where a swim ladder was welded without any work done to the inside of the hull, and below the water line where the pine nailers trapped water that could not make its way to the bilge pumps. Worst rust damage Ive found so far is below the main hatch where a leak behind the paneling collected and was trapped in the joint at the pilot house deck and bulkhead then into an electrical raceway created below the teak sole and destroyed the steel sub floor. The boat showed beautifully (with the exception of the plastic windows which you could see through none of). What I did notice was the smell. Having spent some years in a ship yard working on boats, I knew that smell.
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Old 25-08-2018, 22:18   #2
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneyes View Post
I apologize for the length of this post. I am new to posting, and after writing this I realized I do not know how to add pictures. Which would have helped a lot. Im hoping to help, myself included, all those who are struggling with steel hull insulation. I read everything I can find on insulation for steel hulls. The one thing I discovered is there are many many "opinions". I admit that I am as of yet, still undecided on what road I will take, but I did learn a lot from dismantling my 36 year old Swedish built boat. Some history... Boat was built by 4, 20 something year old Swedes with varied sailing experience. I believe one had a father who built steel boats,(helpful) one had a famous racing father, (also helpful) and the other two just loved to sail. Apparently they decided to build a boat to sail around the world with the hope to sell after to finance the whole thing, which they did. My experience with these types of builds is corners get cut to save money since "long term" ownership is not a concern. What I found proves that again, but not in the way I normally see it. These guys built (had built) a great hull. Welding was first class, hull is beautiful with no fairing, and the carpentry was impressive (even though it was never designed to be simply taken apart) . Where they saved money was things like INSULATION. Bet you were wondering when I was going to get to that... They used everything they could find. Styrofoam, rubber mat, rock wool, carpet underlayment and glass bats. They knew, or were told, no insulation below the water line, because there was none. What I found dismantling her was very interesting and contradicts many of the things I've read. Some important information to know as well, is another area they saved money, was the windows. Plastic, and every one leaked. Those leaks soaked much of the insulation. Another consideration to keep in mind when considering how this all played out, was the hull was constructed using the skip frame method (A Bruce Roberts thing) where every other rib is missing, which makes the boat lighter, and it apparently works great since there is plenty of evidence the hull has had its share of hard hits to the dock with no hull deformities. To create nailers for the copious amount of teak, swedish pine 2x2 with the ends filled were wedged between the ribs horizontally which created a dam to hold water below the windows. Even after a month on the hard, far from the coast in 100 degree weather, those areas still had wet insulation and the pine was saturated. One last piece of this puzzle that is important is the hull paint. It was minimal, maybe two light coats of epoxy. That should paint a pretty good picture of things right? Well, I was very surprised. Those wet bats, which were packed tightly between hull and teak panels, did not cause any rust. Where the rust does exist, and there is a lot of rust, is where the glue was used to tack the bats in place. I admit, that I do not know what the glue was, but it appears to have had a chemical reaction with the paint. Everywhere that the glue was used, is rust. There are some areas where no glue was used, and I removed wet insulation, and found no rust at all. This was the same for the underlayment which I could wring out. The rubber mat and the styrofoam were used under the lids and sikaflex or like was used to hold them in place. No rust there. Areas where the real rust problems exist are where a swim ladder was welded without any work done to the inside of the hull, and below the water line where the pine nailers trapped water that could not make its way to the bilge pumps. Worst rust damage Ive found so far is below the main hatch where a leak behind the paneling collected and was trapped in the joint at the pilot house deck and bulkhead then into an electrical raceway created below the teak sole and destroyed the steel sub floor. The boat showed beautifully (with the exception of the plastic windows which you could see through none of). What I did notice was the smell. Having spent some years in a ship yard working on boats, I knew that smell.
What can I say, punctuation and sentences are your friends! These would make a difficult read really easy.
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Old 26-08-2018, 07:53   #3
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Best to structure to enable scanning for gist.

Whitespace, paragraph breaks, bullet items, headings.

Only 5% of those even interested would bother plowing through that "wall o' text".
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Old 26-08-2018, 12:21   #4
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
What can I say, punctuation and sentences are your friends! These would make a difficult read really easy.
Sorry professor, I did not consider that this would be graded... Apparently you felt it was more important to judge than to be constructive.

Just for you-

Insulation did not cause the rust on my 36 year old hull, but the glue used to keep it in place apparently did.

Happy ?
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Old 26-08-2018, 12:52   #5
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

I've dealt with a lot of steel boats and ships. To stop rust, the steel needs to have proper barrier coats, glue isn't it. The best insulation I have used is sprayed in foam. The foam bonds itself to whatever it touches. The foam expands immediately after spray. Nozzle setting determines thickness of foam. I used it mainly in fishing boats. 4-6" in crew areas and as much as 18" in fish holds. After spray, foam is scraped/planed level and plywood is bonded to the foam with epoxy.
Foam doesn't absorb water, stops noise and holds temps better than anything I've seen. House type insulation, wool, fiberglass, has no place on a boat. Styrofoam is probably 2nd best. There are insulation companies that spray the foam. Foam (in the US) is rated by lbs/cu.ft. 2 lbs/cu.ft. light weight is probably ok anywhere in a yacht. Heaver stuff is for bearing weight or structural support.

The reason the insulation probably stopped at the waterline is where the boat was to be used had water warmer than the air in freezing weather. When unattended, the water temps would keep the bilge, water tanks and plumbing from freezing.
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Old 26-08-2018, 12:58   #6
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneyes View Post
Sorry professor, I did not consider that this would be graded... Apparently you felt it was more important to judge than to be constructive.

Just for you-

Insulation did not cause the rust on my 36 year old hull, but the glue used to keep it in place apparently did.

Happy ?
You need to back of a bit on the sensitivity Salmoneyes, the criticism implied was constructive in nature and following the advice on punctuation and structure would have made your posting much more readable.

You have some good observations and conclusions from these observations to impart and it is a pity that they were so effectively buried in a poorly written posting.
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Old 26-08-2018, 13:05   #7
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
The reason the insulation probably stopped at the waterline is where the boat was to be used had water warmer than the air in freezing weather. When unattended, the water temps would keep the bilge, water tanks and plumbing from freezing.
Now that is the first time I heard that. It makes good sense as well, and being built professionally in Sweden, I will assume that may have been their take.
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Old 26-08-2018, 14:59   #8
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Yes, the whitespace suggestion was to allow more to read the post.

Which I assume you would want.

But then I assumed you were asking for help.

Maybe copy and paste here, since the editing time window has passed.
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Old 27-08-2018, 11:51   #9
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Yes, the whitespace suggestion was to allow more to read the post.

Which I assume you would want.

But then I assumed you were asking for help.

Maybe copy and paste here, since the editing time window has passed.
I realize it was not written following the "rules" which truthfully, I dont know them. I was hoping to add some real life information to the "steel hull insulation" controversy.

I think that what I found is important to those who have steel hulled boats and are interested in understanding insulation, and like everything these days, one has to ask where the information comes from, and can it be supported with actual real life examples.
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Old 27-08-2018, 12:37   #10
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Good post, Salmoneyes. I don't have a problem with how you composed it.

I'll second Lepke on sprayed in foam being by far the best. By far. Specifically because there must be an effective vapor barrier between the inside of the boat and the steel. Any break in that barrier allows the warmer moist air inside the hull to condense on the cold steel. This guarantees a wet inner surface. The sprayed foam is a perfect vapor barrier. Anything else is going to develop leaks over time.
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Old 27-08-2018, 12:37   #11
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Salmoneyes,

I liked you post well enough.

2 Steel boats, the 33’er has sparked foam insulation. I had a long term leak down a radar pole that caused me to repair a bit of the hull. There was some areas where the leak water came into contact with the foam and that had some mild rust. This was a bit below water line. I had to take a good bit out to get to all the effected areas. Not an easy task.

Where I see rust is where there is any kind of persistent leak. Under sinks for example.

But also sometimes near a non welded SS fitting there will be rust. Many times not, but enough to know that sometimes something is going on.

I try to make all ss fittings welded, can’t always do.

There are some alternative construction methods that help not trap water. Our big boat has the plates welded to solid 1” rod which form the chines. No other internal stringers. No place for water to pool.
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Old 27-08-2018, 12:55   #12
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

I have also been thinking a lot about all the discussions about using spray foam. Having spent time around commercial boats, I realized that for their purpose, spray foam is totally acceptable. Commercial boats are used to generate revenue. The costs associated with the product itself, and the labor to remove it for repairs is justified by the fact that the boat produces income. The opposite is true for sailboats, most specifically cruisers, where the boat is not making money, but requires money for things like general maintenance and repairs for the occasional mishap.

I am still on the fence about how I will ultimately insulate ours, but to dismiss fiberglass bats based on information I have read online versus what I am seeing with my own eyes, would be a mistake. I am certain only that insulating a steel hull boat has its trade offs regarding comfort and costs and we all have to decide where we draw that line. All we have to help in that decision is the information we have available to us at any given time, with the hope that the information is accurate and based on similar applications.
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Old 27-08-2018, 13:47   #13
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneyes View Post
I have also been thinking a lot about all the discussions about using spray foam. Having spent time around commercial boats, I realized that for their purpose, spray foam is totally acceptable. Commercial boats are used to generate revenue. The costs associated with the product itself, and the labor to remove it for repairs is justified by the fact that the boat produces income. The opposite is true for sailboats, most specifically cruisers, where the boat is not making money, but requires money for things like general maintenance and repairs for the occasional mishap.

I am still on the fence about how I will ultimately insulate ours, but to dismiss fiberglass bats based on information I have read online versus what I am seeing with my own eyes, would be a mistake. I am certain only that insulating a steel hull boat has its trade offs regarding comfort and costs and we all have to decide where we draw that line. All we have to help in that decision is the information we have available to us at any given time, with the hope that the information is accurate and based on similar applications.
Having built and maintained a steel boat for 25 years and spent many hours discussing and observing other steel boats I came to the opinion that spray foam is the most practical way of insulating the steel hulls.

That being said I also experienced a number of the problems you mention in your post. These could have all been avoided through design changes. The two causes most involved in my problems were: water traps built in with chine bars and stringers, and, deck leaks which found their way along and down the junctions between ribs and hull plates which were only stitch welded.
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Old 27-08-2018, 15:28   #14
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneyes View Post
I have also been thinking a lot about all the discussions about using spray foam. Having spent time around commercial boats, I realized that for their purpose, spray foam is totally acceptable. Commercial boats are used to generate revenue. The costs associated with the product itself, and the labor to remove it for repairs is justified by the fact that the boat produces income. The opposite is true for sailboats, most specifically cruisers, where the boat is not making money, but requires money for things like general maintenance and repairs for the occasional mishap.

I am still on the fence about how I will ultimately insulate ours, but to dismiss fiberglass bats based on information I have read online versus what I am seeing with my own eyes, would be a mistake. I am certain only that insulating a steel hull boat has its trade offs regarding comfort and costs and we all have to decide where we draw that line. All we have to help in that decision is the information we have available to us at any given time, with the hope that the information is accurate and based on similar applications.
FWIW, when I insulated my steel boat the build up was as follows:

1. Spray on Quiet Ship vibration dampening compound. This stuff goes on really thick and while it isn't intended to be an insulation material, it does a great job of protecting the paint.
2. Glue on 1/4" acoustical cork. This is a product designed to dampen noise, but also keeps the steel from condensing water.
3. Fiberglass batts, mechanically fastened to the cork.
4. In the ER, a layer of 1" acoustical foam over the cork and the batts.

The ship is completely dry, and very, very quiet underway or at anchor. I have slept through a gale at anchor without being able to hear the ruckus outside.
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Old 27-08-2018, 16:07   #15
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Re: Steel Hull insulation after 36 years

A rigid foam that does not absorb water would be better than FG batts IMO.

Two-part spray can be used for gaps to complete the vapour barrier, fact that 98% is less expensive and removable boards may make it more attractive than all sprayed.
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