Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-02-2013, 14:02   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,433
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.
__________________

__________________
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 05:40   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London, UK
Boat: Helleman, 45' Steel Trawler
Posts: 92
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

If I were you I would look around for an unfinished project.

What you want to look for is a hull and deck that has been professionally built, so all welds are good. In a perfect world the boat was built in Holland at the height of their steel boatbuilding reputation. In this perfect world you would find a boat that had spent as little time as possible in seawater.

Then you want to get the boat out of the water, totally strip out the entire interior back to bare metal, and then sandblast every inch, inside and out. For a 45' boat, and with the right blasting equipment, the boat can be back to bare metal in 2-3 days. Then paint everything with 2-3 coats of Ameron epoxy (summer time so the temp is right), and then start your rebuild (fir, insulate, line).

If you know how to weld then you can get an angle grinder and make all kinds of modifications. Cut out old rusty water tanks, add things like ventilation shafts to support dorade boxes, maybe put in a hatch or two, lower a floor to gain more headroom, etc.

The great thing about a steel boat is that it is easy to modify with basic and easy to use equipment. You can even cut out areas of the hull where the steel may be thin due to corrosion. It is no big deal.

But be careful not to buy a dead steel boat. This will be a 30 year old boat that may look good on the outside, but is rusty on the inside. Steel boats rust from the inside, so beware. You can either get it surveyed or buy a machine yourself for about $400 which will tell you exactly how thich the steel is, and then you jjust spend a few hours mapping the entire hull. Or you look at it stripped back to bare metal on the inside. Dont buy a steel boat unless you know how thick the hull is....or you could be wasting all of your money. I know someone who nearly shelled out big bucks for a great looking steel boat that he then discovered was paper thin when it was surveyed (it was then sold for scrap metal).

Alternatively, try and find a boat for sale that somebody else has already done all the work themselves, and can prove it. I have pictures for the entire renovation of my boat which I am nearly 5 years into. Chances are that a boat like this will not be cheap (unless it is ugly) because of the huge amount of resources that have gone into it to get it to this stage.

So, if you have the time and the skills, try and pick up an unfinished project, blast, paint, modify, and then re-fit. You could end up with your dream boat.

I have lowered floors, replaced ladders with stairs, added a big sun roof hatch, turned two heads into one big one, converted two small cabins into one big one, laid 1" teak floors, insulated ten times better than before, extended my pilothouse to add another berth, etc. These are all things you can easily do with a steel boat that would be considerably harder to accomplish with aluminum or fibreglass.
__________________

__________________
Honey Ryder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 07:38   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
The killer with steel is not building, in my opinion, it's maintenance.

If you're the sort of person who hates gardening because of weeds, and resents mowing lawns, you might not enjoy owning a steel boat.
A steel boat does not require more maintenance than any other type of material if build properly.
Curiously I am not keen in pulling weeds and I own a steel boat.
As for S/V Alchemy the owner does not seem to like pulling weeds either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Steel is also amenable to heat-shrinking
I would not recommend it. It will affect the properties of the steel getting shrunk. A steel boat when designed and built properly should not necessitate heat shaping or filler.
Steel round bilge boat are often build using what used to be called a “conical development” the shape of the hull is more controlled by the way it can be build than by the way it should be build and often do not make very good boat.

Now for the cost of a 37 foot pilothouse cutter the Australian dollars mentioned must be adjusted to its equivalent US$ at the time of purchase. The metric ton of steel was around AU$ 1000.00 and Ssteel was around AU$ 7.00 per kilo for 304 and AU$ 10.00 for 316. Adjust accordingly. The cost does not show the value of recycled material nor does it take into consideration costed material left over.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	cost07.jpg
Views:	213
Size:	405.6 KB
ID:	54632   Click image for larger version

Name:	cost13.jpg
Views:	181
Size:	400.9 KB
ID:	54633  

__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 13:09   #49
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,576
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.
Hmm. OK, so I have a multi-chined hull, I suppose, by this definition (with which I'm not going to argue as it seems well-reasoned). The bit of my boat you cannot see, however, is the deck, which is cambered in an unbroken curve in order to shed water and to provide a "flat" place to stand while heeled. The coach house and pilot house are more typically welded in angled plates.

So perhaps I have a radius chine deck on a multi-chined hull? Dunno. She sails smartly, and I think I'll keep her!

I concur we've probably driven off the OP with all this metal boat talk. Hazard of the subject, I find.
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 13:18   #50
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,576
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by chala View Post
Curiously I am not keen in pulling weeds and I own a steel boat.
As for S/V Alchemy the owner does not seem to like pulling weeds either.
Gardening is for lubbers, mate. I have a skinny and long backyard with four fruit-bearing trees in it. My method of gardening is to litter kitchen compost around the trunks in the spring, and to run a leaky length of hose from the rainbarrel more or less past the roots. I lay out worn-out sails as tarps to kill off the grass and weeds, and then I pick up the deadfall and pruned bits (assume I even bother), and run 'em through a wood chipper to create ground cover.

Every three years, I circle the perimeter with a running chain saw at knee level to keep down the weed trees and to create woodchip stock. Lawnmowing? Hedge-clipping? Bah.

All this amounts to an afternoon per year for a load of cherries, apricots, apples and plums, all of which taste nicer on the boat!
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 13:56   #51
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

"So, if you have the time and the skills, try and pick up an unfinished project, blast, paint, modify, and then re-fit. You could end up with your dream boat."

Thats what I'm doing.

With a toerail like this one, do I need a jib track? Is there anything wrong with attaching a block to the toerail to trim the jib? I thought I might even build a car that sits on the toerail. Whatdoya think?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	toe rail.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	394.3 KB
ID:	54683   Click image for larger version

Name:	toerail 1.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	385.3 KB
ID:	54684  

__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 14:51   #52
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,576
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

There's nothing wrong with it, but the reason to put a genoa track inboard is to point higher. The reason to run a car, either on a "pin" or on a continuous line capable of being cleated, is to maintain the correct angle while reducing sail.

It's a Roberts in steel. You want a honking big genoa and a way to sheet in hard for maximum windward oomph.

Toerails with holes are great for hanging fenders, clipping halyard shackles to, and fairleading furling lines.

Just my .02.
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 15:19   #53
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Thanks for the input. I'll go with the track
__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2013, 15:26   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,899
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Ted Brewer has some good examples of round and radius chine in his books.

Good Old Boat - Is there a metal yacht in your future? article

I have to agree why build when you can buy.

We bought a good Pape boat, had ~$50K of receipts for new stuff like engine, sails, electronics, windlass. Ready to sail.

Last night I looked at last years receipts for outfitting to single hand. Well over another $30K. Radar, strong track, additional winches, rope, sails, sat phone, etc.

There is just SOOOOOOO much you can spend on a boat it is frightening.

But that is true no matter what the basic material.

P.S. Really like the Pape. God awful heavy, but real comfy. I had trouble sailing her last summer, but I think that had more to do with an inadequate sail wardrobe. Only genoa was a VERY heavy Yankee, that didn't set right. Hopefully we have that fixed now with a lapper and a drifter.
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2013, 03:39   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 679
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.
Thanks Grant, that all seems fair and reasonable. So I'd be keen to hear how you and/or others might classify this hull, which seems (to my inexperienced eye anyway) to have compound curving on the topside plate and on the bottom plate with a soft chine between...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	March01 046.jpg
Views:	125
Size:	409.7 KB
ID:	54732   Click image for larger version

Name:	March01 048.jpg
Views:	137
Size:	410.3 KB
ID:	54733  

Click image for larger version

Name:	March01 060.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	406.2 KB
ID:	54734   Click image for larger version

Name:	April01 082.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	410.1 KB
ID:	54735  

__________________
Wand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:16   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt sachs View Post
Is there anything wrong with attaching a block to the toerail to trim the jib? I thought I might even build a car that sits on the toerail. Whatdoya think?
So long the block does not damage the topside and the car does not wreck the toe rail or you are in fore some dreaded maintenance.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2013, 08:48   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt sachs View Post
Thanks for the input. I'll go with the track
How will you fasten the tracks to the deck?
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2013, 09:38   #58
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Nothing is actually attached to the deck. I drill oversized holes thru the deck and fill it with west. Then I drill thru the west and bolt to the steel framework under the deck. If there was no steel where I want to put something like the windlass, I added it and braced it to the hull. I did this with the cleats and stanchions as well and it worked out nicely. I suppose the tracks will be done the same way. How much force do the tracks have to withstand? (Thats a vague question, I know)
__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2013, 11:13   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt sachs View Post
Nothing is actually attached to the deck. I drill oversized holes
This may come a little too late but in my view, to prevent damage to the steel protective coating anything fasten to steel should not be able to move. For that reason I normally try to reduce the amount of fitting that require bolting to the steel. When I need to fasten winches, capstan, I normally fit them on 316 SS pad that I weld to the steel before the protective coating is applied to the steel. All the holes are threaded, the fittings are screwed to the SS using sealant and internally, a locknut, some sealant and a large washer is used. For portholes where the cost of welding SS will be to expensive threaded holes are cut into the steel, a rubber gasket seal the Perspex to the opening and the 6mm 316 holding bolts that screw into the threaded hole. Sealant and a special nylon sealing and locking washer is used in the inside with a nut. To my knowledge a threaded hole is the best way of reducing movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt sachs View Post
How much force do the tracks have to withstand? (Thats a vague question, I know)
Normally the track must be able to carry the load that the block will carry. The block must be suitable for the sheets, the sheets for the size of the foresail and the foresail for its intended use. The angle at witch the sheet is departing the block must also be taken into consideration and of course all other equipment (tailing winches, spinlock, etc) must be adequately sized. I get you some information about how to size this and where to place the tracks.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2013, 13:09   #60
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: Steel boat building price and advise???

Normally the track must be able to carry the load that the block will carry. The block must be suitable for the sheets, the sheets for the size of the foresail and the foresail for its intended use. The angle at witch the sheet is departing the block must also be taken into consideration and of course all other equipment (tailing winches, spinlock, etc) must be adequately sized. I get you some information about how to size this and where to place the tracks.


Thanks. The track placement dosent have to be finalized just yet. (but I need to iron this out soon) They will be roughly on both sides of the cockpit. I'm prepping for spray foam currently.
__________________

__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
price

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to Calculate an Offer Price zboss Dollars & Cents 77 22-07-2013 12:04
Buy a Sailboat, Charter a Sailboat, or Fractional Ownership? Dr. Moreau General Sailing Forum 7 04-09-2012 13:07
advice on a project boat purchase... Allio Monohull Sailboats 48 19-08-2012 18:49
Where Did I go Wrong ? ausaviator Multihull Sailboats 34 19-06-2012 09:08
The buying process. Talk me through it. dgasmd Dollars & Cents 42 11-05-2012 19:16



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.