Side berths trailer sailor, width?

[Spot]

Hello Everyone-
I took out the v-berth and side berths in my Luger Southwind 21 last summer as part pf the process to rid the boat of carpeting, mice poop, and destroyed EPS flotation foam. It is approaching time to put something back. The original side berths were 20 or 21" max width, just making a nice lip over the longitudinal framing of the boat . I am considering making this wider, either 24" (1/2 sheet plywood) or 27" (max width before they interfere with companionway) to allow more room for sleeping.


Q:Are there 'sitting' issues on a berth too deep that would make the 21 or 24" depth make more sense than 27"? ACX plywood OK if finished?



Current plan is to splash the boat, check for leaks, and if it looks fine, start to frame in new berths. I also have questions about foam. From what I read online, sailboats are generally exempt in the USA from flotation required for powerboats. The kit's finisher added 2 or 3" thick 1970's bead board EPS before glassing in the tops of the berths, making everything difficult to service/clean. My first thought is to figure out how to add some sort of under-berth storage to the v-berth and side berths and after that allocate the leftover spaces for some foam, which would be EPS covered in cloth and resin so it is less attractive to mice.


Q: Does the above plan (less flotation, 'armored' flotation, more storage) sound like a good idea?



I am not planning on a dinette but will have a place for a stove and /sink. I am also going to have some sort of head but probably self-contained and not plumbed to be pumped out.


I appreciate people's thoughts about all this!

[rbk]

Wider seats can be uncomfortable but it’s an individual thing. You could build them with interlocking slats that can be pulled out for sleeping, usually using a small backrest cushion to fill in the berth when in use or similar with a sheet of ply, some hardware or interlocking joinery (dowels and hole are easiest) both require feet, but some 1/2-3/4” square tubing doesn’t project that far into living space.

[rbk]

Rest of the plan sounds good. Another option to foam is sealed bulkheads. Glass in any number of compartments and add sealed acres hatches. You could also add a small water tank, in some ways it would be better but you have to consider size and location carefully.

[Spot]

Originally Posted by rbk

Wider seats can be uncomfortable but it’s an individual thing. You could build them with interlocking slats that can be pulled out for sleeping, usually using a small backrest cushion to fill in the berth when in use or similar with a sheet of ply, some hardware or interlocking joinery (dowels and hole are easiest) both require feet, but some 1/2-3/4” square tubing doesn’t project that far into living space.

Thanks RBK. I have an old motorhome that has the dinnette seat back cushions that fold down when used as a bed. I though about a folding lip that would be up for bed and down for seat. Then I circle back to 'keep it simple'...

[Pete7]

I think you will want all the storage space you can get rather than fill it with foam. Unless that is you are doing something similar to Roger Tailor and his voyages to the Arctic.

Photos of junk-rigged Corribee Mingming

However, insulation would be good whilst you have all the interior out.

Pete

[rbk]

Originally Posted by Spot

Thanks RBK. I have an old motorhome that has the dinnette seat back cushions that fold down when used as a bed. I though about a folding lip that would be up for bed and down for seat. Then I circle back to 'keep it simple'...

Simple is best but it still has to be functional. I would personally keep the narrower berth/settee and install lee clothes; glass in the areas underneath and add watertight access hatches. If you have a significant other you could add a drop in space to combine the two berths into one big one but storing the boards and cushions will become tedious. The extra space in the cabin will be welcome when holed up on a rainy day. Also good to have a boom tent to expand your useable covered space in inclement weather.

[Spot]

Thanks for the replies!

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think you will want all the storage space you can get rather than fill it with foam. Unless that is you are doing something similar to Roger Tailor and his voyages to the Arctic.

Photos of junk-rigged Corribee Mingming

However, insulation would be good whilst you have all the interior out.

Pete

The thought of insulating crossed my mind. Previous owners used carpet. An acquaintance (friend of my adult kids) does spray insulation as a day job. That would be a two-for-one, thermal and flotation. I was not planning on an expedition type refit, more of a week-ender/week-longer, but I appreciate seeing the Mingming site.

Originally Posted by rbk

Simple is best but it still has to be functional. I would personally keep the narrower berth/settee and install lee clothes; glass in the areas underneath and add watertight access hatches. If you have a significant other you could add a drop in space to combine the two berths into one big one but storing the boards and cushions will become tedious. The extra space in the cabin will be welcome when holed up on a rainy day. Also good to have a boom tent to expand your useable covered space in inclement weather.

Pleasant on a rainy day would be a real treat, and the boom tent is a great idea. I have air chambers in the dinghy with the screw-in plates so I am familiar with that. I am warming to the idea of narrow berths and a stow-able dining table, leaving an open space before the companionway and the head.

[roland stockham]

Measure from your back to the back of ypur knees. 2 inches less than this is your max seat width. How wide you need to sleep on depends what sort of sailing you plan. In fair weather the wider the better but for bad weather about 2 inch wider than shoulder width is ideal. It feels cramped but when the boat is rolling it is hard to sleeep when you keep rolling across the bunk with ever wave!

[Spot]

Thanks Roland.
According to those metrics, I would be looking at 22" max for sitting and 24" for sleeping. Anyone shorter would need a pillow at their back to keep the underside of their knees out over the edge while sitting. Of course in this boat the outer edge of the berth will be curving in on both ends and the most likely place to sit will be just aft of the side cabinets holding stove and sink near the v-berth.

[Spot]

Would 3/8"(10mm) or 1/2" (13mm) exterior glue ply with 1x2" (25 x 50mm) clear pine framing, all painted, be adequate? Curved edges would be glassed to hull. I cannot remember exactly what I pulled out of there...

[Spot]

I found a small piece of the top of the berths underneath the cockpit. 3-ply 3/8"(10mm). So the original construction looked something like this:

[Frank999]

Instead of making the berth wider, you might consider using a lee cloth. I consider the most comfortable berth on my 1987 Catalina 30 to be the starboard settee used with a lee cloth. It would not be comfortable otherwise because I would feel like I was falling off, even in a dead calm, because it's too narrow. The lee cloth is bolted the the inboard side of the berth under the cushion. At night, it is laced to the overhead handhold with a piece of line. It is very quick and easy to rig and unrig. During the day, it and the line are hidden under the cushion.

[Spot]

Thanks Frank.
I just saw another Youtube video where they were using a lee cloth on passage. What would be common to smaller boats is that 1/2 of the side berth is "normal" and exposed to the cabin and the other 1/2 is tucked between hull and the inside bottom of the cockpit. The leg/foot area of the berth is not closed all the way in and leads to the unfinished area under the cockpit. See the pictures above looking aft that show the winch for the keel, the orange one is my boat before the carpet and plywood was removed.

If I extended the lee cloth idea to box in the aft end of the berth up the cabin, and then had a separate removable section in the cabin, that might be a workable solution to having a snug berth and delineating between the 'finished' and 'unfinished' portions of the interior.

I am getting excited to tackle this. The first get-together of the season is in 3 weeks and the boat has been in my possession for a year without being splashed. It is also unhandy working inside the boat with nowhere good to sit and nowhere good to lay out tools and parts.

[Spot]

I got thinking about the joint to the hull and then wondered if I'd be ahead adding a face frame underneath and glassing that to the hull so the plywood can be added and removed with destroying the boat as I had to do last time.

[Frank999]

I think it's absolutely a good idea to do as you describe in your last post. It's about as easy as doing it any other way, and you can remove the plywood easily. But don't you want or need the space under the berth for storage?


I remembered a book I have, the Boat Data Book by Ian Nicholson. It says that the minimum comfortable size for a berth for a "large but not exceptional" man is 6'4" long, 1'9" wide at hips and shoulders, 1'1" wide at the foot, and 1'4" wide at the head. It also says the depth of a seat should be 16.5 to 18 inches.


I'll probably be at my boat this week, and I can measure a berth that's comfortable for me, if you like.