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Old 24-04-2015, 09:55   #16
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

On all pipe threads I use Leak Lock.
Highside Chemicals Inc. manufacturers Leak Lock and Leak Lock Gold.
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Old 27-04-2015, 08:47   #17
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Tera Nova thanks for your suggestion, unfortunately all the
1. IBV (valve) to IBVF (flange) tapered threads are done with teflon tape
2. IBV (valve) to Hose fittings are teflon tape

I have used West Six10 Epoxy to glue the Groco Backing plates in the proper orientation. I put a very small piece of blue tape on the bottom side of the threaded ferrel so that epoxy would not invade the threads. That worked in most cases but in several places I had to dig the soft epoxy out.

A good friend and yard owner expressed his belief that through bolting is the best way, and I could at this point just drill 3 holes through the hull and thru-bolt the IBVF with silicone bronze flathead screws countersunk. When I said I could do that, he suggested that I just continue and see how it works. (I think he'd like to see me get in the water and go sailing.)

The next step is to cut the bronze thru-hulls off the top the correct depth and then secure the IBVF (flange). I am considering using 3M 5200 to secure the inside flange to the backing plate plus the (3) 5/16" x 1" bronze bolts the Groco Backing plates call for, to provide greater strength and adhesion in the event the thru-hull failed.

Then the question I have right now is about what I put on the thru-hull threads. These threads do not appear to be tapered. Should I be using teflon tape, leak lock, 3M 4000UV, or something else?

I assume that under the head of the thru-hull fitting I should bevel the edge and use 3M 400OUV which is more of a sealant than an adhesive line 3M 5200.

I am interested in constructive suggestions and reasons. Thank you.
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Old 27-04-2015, 18:26   #18
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Today we cut and finished the threaded thru-hull fittings for the proper length, and then dry fit the seacocks on the boat. After talking about this further, I think the 3M 5200 on the IBVF flange is overkill and will make removal too much trouble. I've decided to:

1. Bed the IBVF triangle flange and the threaded thru-hull exterior flanges (up to the inside of the hull) with 3M 4200.
2. On the top part of the thru-hull threads I'm considering putting teflon tape to help seal, and on the bottom part of the threads I might use Leak Lock or Loctite Red to provide a different type of seal and to prevent unscrewing.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Old 27-04-2015, 18:31   #19
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Replacement of six 33 year old Wilcox Crittenden Tapered Bronze seacocks in Bristol 32' due to dripping and general deterioration after lapping and good care and use. (4 )1-1/2" and (2) 3/4" raw water & head seawater.

First considered Spartan Tapered Bronze - very expensive. Prices S701 1-1/2" Seacock $300 plus thruhull and flange.
Like all bronze metal to metal because barnacles and growth are reduced and when the seacock is turned the barnacles are scraped off cleanly.
Can Seacock be left closed or open for longer than ball valves? - I have no experience with the difference. Maintenance and Care: Servicing Tapered Cone Seacocks Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Groco Seacocks
Groco BV (Integral Flange and Valve) - Servieable out of the water. Stainless steel ball valve and teflon. There are 4 set screws which loosen and the top threaded fitting will give access to replace the ball valve. Groco Engineering has not found it necessary to provide a repair kit because so few have been repaired. - Most expensive Groco valve.

Groco FBV (Integral Flange and Valve) - Not serviceable in the water, repair requires removal and replacement. The chromed brass ball in teflon seat is not replacable because the top threaded fitting has been permanently secured with epoxy or something (I tried to twist it off with large pipe wrench and bench vice, impossible). Groco later advised you can't undo these valves. Just replace them. --This does not work for me.

Groco IBVF + IBV (Flange + Valve) - Meets ABYC standards. IBV has chromed brass ball permanently secured like BVF but can screw off the base IBVF. "Far Reach" decided to replace older Spartans and here are his reasons. Further down read his reasons for selecting IBVF + IBV which apparently exceed ABYC break off standards and allow for removal and replacement of the valve in the water. Far Reach Voyages Home Page
-- Currently favoring this valve. Has anyone used them?

Seacock Primer
Seacock Backing Plates
Seacock Replacement and Installation
Thruhull Installation Sikaflex 291 shown.
Seacock Failure Testing

I have several questions:
  1. If small barnacles grow on a closed valves chrome, when the valve is opened does the teflon seal get damaged and will the teflon be strong enough to remove the barnacle base?
  2. What is the general experience with growth and barnacles on stainless steel or chromed brass ball valves?
  3. I have heard of pumping trailer grease into the ball cavity by removing the drain plugs and temporarily inserting a zerc fitting. Is this effective at preventing growth and barnacles?
  4. If a seacock is left open (cockpit drain), would barnacles grow faster on the inside of the chromed brass ball than the existing tapered bronze seacocks? [These 33 year old WC Tapered seacocks are hardly ever turned, and are serviced and greased every other year. Should I just keep them as long as possible? --Replacement would be the next project.]
  5. For seating the thruhull/valve should I use 5200 or Sikaflex 291?
  6. What sealant should I use between the IBVF and IBV to prevent it from unscrewing? [Will be making 1/2" threaded backing plates and bolting IBVF as suggested by Groco]
Thanks



Good Forum Seacock Thread here.
We recently surveyed all our Groco sea cocks during our annual haulout and bottom job. The survey consisted of a full internal inspection using a medium res borescope.

Most were in great condition. Several had evidence of light corrosion or pitting. None are leaking. All are bedded really well. All open and close fully. We are liveaboards and we sail regularly.

Those that were always open are in great condition and showed no evidence of any buildup, barnacles, critters or weed. Some of those that were often closed like the blackwater holding tank showed pitting.

This makes sense from a materials science perspective. Constant exposure to flowing sea water is good. Having blackwater tank deposits sitting stagnant is likely to be more of an issue.

What I havent yet determined is what the balls are. Stainless or chromed.

During our next haulout, later this year, we will be replacing those previously identified.

Will keep watching your post.

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Old 27-04-2015, 18:33   #20
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

I might use Loctite Blue (74 lb torque) instead of Loctite Red (150 -300 lb torque) to break.

One of the better links above used Silkaflex 291 instead of 3M 4200 and my description above.

This link has a photo with the Silkaflex 291 only. Note the way it is spread. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/i...ing_a_thruhull
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Old 27-04-2015, 18:38   #21
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Why experiment with something so important. Go with what has always worked.
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Old 27-04-2015, 19:02   #22
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Today we cut and finished the threaded thru-hull fittings for the proper length, and then dry fit the seacocks on the boat. After talking about this further, I think the 3M 5200 on the IBVF flange is overkill and will make removal too much trouble. I've decided to:

1. Bed the IBVF triangle flange and the threaded thru-hull exterior flanges (up to the inside of the hull) with 3M 4200.
2. On the top part of the thru-hull threads I'm considering putting teflon tape to help seal, and on the bottom part of the threads I might use Leak Lock or Loctite Red to provide a different type of seal and to prevent unscrewing.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
Re: #2: teflon tape will NOT seal straight threads.

I think you might as well use the same 4200 on the entire thruhull-IBVF assembly; If you are using it on the IBVF it will likely be squeezed onto the threads of the turuhull as you assemble.

I used 5200, the whole Idea of the IBVF to me is a permanent thruhull and base for a replaceable valve. Even with 4200 the thruhull will not unscrew without some major heat and torque.

4200 or 5200, use lots clean it up with mineral spirits moistened rags while it's still wet. If you put sealant on the female threads of the IBVF, the thruhull will just push it up when screwed in, ok, but a mess to clean up; I just covered the bottom of the IBVF and the whole thruhull (including threads) with 5200 and assembled; I actually did everything including backing plates and (thru) bolts in one operation all with 5200.

Cheers,
JM.
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Old 27-04-2015, 19:49   #23
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

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We are going to use West Six10 thickened epoxy to adhere the blocks. We are using the Groco backing blocks as they are cost effective and do not require additional fabrication time which can add up. I pressed the 3 brass threaded Ferrels into the backing plates with a bench vice. Now I am debating if I should put a small piece of tape on the back side to prevent epoxy from affecting the threads, before attaching the backing block to the hull.
I did something similar, however I made my own plate as I had some 1/2" thick fiberglass around. I also used expanding press in inserts. I predrilled the holes in the backing plate of proper size and then used six-10 to epoxy the plate to the hull. Once that was cured, I drilled about a 1/2" into the hull and pushed in the inserts so that they were half in the backing plate and half in the hull. This allowed the hull to take the torque of screwing in the the thru hull and valve instead of just the epoxy. I wasn't sure how strong the epoxy was, and trying to get friends or family to lend a hand around the boat is like asking to pull teeth so I had to do it all on my own. It worked out well, but one hole was not drilled perfectly perpendicular since I had poor access, which made getting the last screw in a bit difficult.

By the way, doing it by yourself means way too many trips up and down the ladder!

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Old 27-04-2015, 21:29   #24
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Leftbrain, the Groco seacocks with bronze handles have stainless balls. The Groco imported seacocks with stainless handles have chrome plated balls.

JM, real men use 5200. Girly men use 4200.
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Old 28-04-2015, 10:27   #25
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

This morning I was able to speak with John at Groco about the installation details. John was very helpful, and it became clear that I have made one mistep in the process using teflon tape on the tapered inside thread IBVF+IBV+Hose Fitting. (I am thinking of leaving it as I have the joints very tight and I don't believe they will leak. I have done plumbing joints with 50-60 psi this way. If I were to do it again, I would certainly use the paste.)

A. Assembly of Seacock Parts (just the parts inside the boat)
1. IBVF (Flange) + IBV (Valve) + Hose Fitting Threads assemble with sealant/lubricant (Teflon Paste). Do NOT use teflon tape because it is just a lubricant. Some installers like Terra Nova use Highside Leak Lock and some others use a marine sealant. Tighten these parts quite tight (refusal).

B. Groco Backing Plates BB-1, BB-2 Installation Details
1. Sand down area, remove all gelcoat, so it is smooth and reasonably level, obviously take care to leave hull as intact as possible. If the boat is cored construction below the waterline, you will need to remove core in the entire area and inject epoxy. Clean up. Also sand and prepare the outside of the hull, removing all paint and leaving a good surface for adhesion and sealant. Acetone surfaces on outside and inside to remove all wax and contaminants.
2. Hammer the three threaded brass ferrels into the Groco BB backing plates holes, taking care to use the appropriate holes (each plate is setup for two different IBVF bases). Ferrels should be flush. Lightly scuff up the back with sandpaper for adhesion and round the top edge (the edge away from the ferrel hexs.)
3. Get the necessary bolts, in my case 5/16"-18 x 1" Silicone Bronze. Use them to secure the inside valve assembly into the backing plates top side (the side away from ferrel hex heads). Hand thread the thru-hull fitting from the outside to help position the inside assembly.
4. Orient the inside assembly so the handles and hoses work properly. If needed, relocate the handle hex nut to allow the handle to move in the opposite direction. Adjust any angled hose fittings. Mark the position and orientation on the hull and the backing plate. Remove the valve.
5. Prevent epoxy from entering the threaded ferrel holes. Spray the bottoms of bolts with WD40 to prevent epoxy from sticking, and screw them in to the bottom of the plates flush with the flange and valve fully assembled. Don't get excess WD40 on the plate or the ferrels.
6. Use West Marine Six Ten two part epoxy cartridge to secure the Groco BB Backing plates. Carefully twist to bed the backing plate and align the plates with the hull hole. Avoid getting epoxy on the bolts. Clean up the extra epoxy and fillet the excess into the Groco BB Backing plate. Use small two small clamps to secure the plate from sliding if necessary. After setup clean the hole out and sand the top plate level if necessary. Remove the bolts.

C. Dry fit the entire assembly

1. Dry fit the full assembly using the bolts, hand tighten. Thread the thru-hull fitting from the outside. Screw it in by hand so it turned all the way in. Verify from four locations, that the mushroom will bed properly on the hull, with a tape measure.
2. Mark and cut the thru-hulls. Label each thru-hull for location on the mushroom. With the thru-hull turned in, mark the hull location with a black marker on the threads. Remove thru-hull and transfer that depth to the end away from the mushroom and add 1/4", and mark that thread all the way around. Carefully cut the end of the threads off with a metal cutoff saw, dremel and small diamond wheel or hacksaw. Finish the raw end and carefully remove burrs and blend the starting thread so it is gradual.
3. Screw the thru-hulls back into the appropriate locations, so they are hand tight and the mushroom is against the hull. Make any small adjustments needed. Tighten the thru hull a final time and check that the flange and mushroom are well seated and ready for the final installation with sealants and adhesive. Carefully turn the bolts in and make sure they do not bottom out, if they do, grind the ends a little and check again.
D. Prepare for installation
1. Remove the thru-hulls and inside bolts.
2. Acetone the surfaces.
3. Tape the outside and inside surfaces, mark the outlines of the flange and mushroom and cut and remove the tape so the flange and mushroom will bed.
4. Get materials in order. Gloves, paper towels, rags, 3M 5200, 3M 4200 or Silkaflex 261 (your decision). At first I thought of the IBVF as permanent and was going to use 3M 5200, but I just removed 5 valves with 5200, so I am using 3M 4200, rather than 3M 4000uv which is just a sealant.

E. Installation of the Seacock

1. Apply 3M 4200 (or your choice of marine sealant/adhesive) to the face of the IBVF Flange. Set in place and screw in the bolts very loose so that you can thread the thru-hull easily.
2. From the ground, test thread the thru-hull to make sure you can start it. Then apply 3M 4200 to the heavily to the hilt of the mushroom and more evenly to the entire threaded area, see this Link. Screw it in hand tight.
3. From inside the hull, tighten the bolts evenly and snugly. Cleanup the major goo mess.
4. From the outside, use the seacock thru-hull wrench to tighten up the thru-hull, but not over tight, the idea is to simple get a water tight seal. It should be snug and tight. Pull hard on a large crescent wrench and that should be good enough. I do not need the full leverage of the 4' turning bar that I used to break the old 3M 5200 seals. Clean up the major goo.
5. From the inside, check the seacocks, tighten the bolts a final bit and then final cleanup.
6. From the outside check the tightness off the thru-hull and final cleanup.
7. Let it setup overnight and remove the tape.

F. Bonding Wire and Lubricant

1. Bonding - Add or connect the Bonding wire which should be at least #14. Use the bonding bolt on the IBVF.
2. Lubrication - Remove the drain plug. Insert a Zirc Fitting 18-27 and use a dedicated new cartridge grease gun with a Dow 111 Molycote cartridge.
Barely crack the valve open, and fill the valve. Remove the Zirc fitting unless it is stainless and replace the plug.

Many thanks to John at Groco and all the others who have helped.
I have been taking pictures and will add those later.
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Old 28-04-2015, 21:22   #26
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

Late today I removed the thru-hulls, taped the inside and outside and used the mushroom and flange as guides to cutout the tape.

I also had to fix the dry fitting of the two 3/4" valves because the Groco BB Backing plate was not perfectly centered, by using a rasp to free up the opening so the thru hull would screw in easily.

One of the changes I would like to see Groco make to the backing plates is provide specific unique backing plates for each size of seacock rather than doubling up and reducing stocking items. This would give the installer a backing plate that should exactly match the hole drilled through the hull and eliminate unnecessary errors.

The threads of the IBVF and thru-hull will be cleaned of grease and dirt with soap and water and well rinsed, because acetone will hurt the ball valve.

I am going to order the Molycote 111 cartridge, a Zirc fitting, purchase a new grease gun to fit, and lubricate the fittings before installation because it will be easier.
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Old 28-04-2015, 22:05   #27
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

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I am going to order the Molycote 111 cartridge, a Zirc fitting, purchase a new grease gun to fit, and lubricate the fittings before installation because it will be easier.
Aren't the valves lubricated from the factory ?

Cheers,
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Old 29-04-2015, 04:26   #28
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

They probably are, however I would like to get lube into the small void between the ball and housing as others have been doing. I discussed this with John and he does the same thing and suggesred what to use and how to do it. Don't try the small tubes he says they pop. Use a cartridge and dedicated gun for the molycote 111. Need to treat the seals right and exercise the valve at least 1x per week with 3 wk max interval, dependent on location.

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Old 29-04-2015, 07:52   #29
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

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...Need to treat the seals right and exercise the valve at least 1x per week with 3 wk max interval...
Come on! No one does this.
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:35   #30
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Re: Seacock Replacement - Groco BV, FBV, IBVF+IBV

We pretty mucj do except one of the5.

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