Sampson post vs deck cleats for foredeck.

[El Pinguino]

Bollards are on wharves... bitts are on ships...

If fitting something new how do you intend to make sure that a shock loading won't just leave you with a big hole in your deck?

[mvmojo]

I'm a fan of properly backed cleats mounted fairly far forward on the toe rail. They eliminate the chafe points created by hawse pipes, chocks, etc.

[deblen]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-203302-2.html

[roland stockham]

Me to, would not be without a samson post. Used for securing anchor cable, as a tow attachment point, to attach a sea anchor. never seen a cleat anywhere near strong enough to do any of these they would just pull of the deck (leaving a whole). You can use a S/S one but I have always assumed these are a cover for the metal or wooden pole underneath to make it look right. To work it must be a continuous column from above deck to a strong fixing on the keel. Traditionally there was also need a strong 'king plank' from the framing around the cabin top to the stem post. On a fiberglass or other boat that does not have framing may be difficult to do the reinforcement and if you just bolt something to the deck it is a cleat not a samson post even if it is in the middle. Typically a boat around 30fft has 4x4 post and the top will snap off before anything else gives!

[TrentePieds]

GI:

A samson post is a lovely thing. In the days of wooden vessels, it was essential to carry its loads into the structure of the vessel, and therefore the post extended down to the keelson and sat twixt two deckbeams spaced the fore'n'aft dimension of the post. These beams took the fore'n'aft loads, and any interference with interior space was something that just had to be put up with in order to allow the samson post to serve its purpose.

In a modern cruising boat that loss of space is rarely acceptable, which accounts for the faux "Samson post" that is, more correctly called a "bitt". Still a good thing to have, but of course its loads need to be vectored into the hull in some other way. Just plunking a "bolt on" bitt onto the deck will not suffice, but you already know that.

So as you describe your foredeck, I would not, if it were me, clutter it up with a "bolt on" bitt with all that that means in regard to strengthening the deck. The way you describe your cleats - set aft of the forward fairleads - seems to me to enable them to serve the functions of a bitt as well as their native ones, provided they are big enough.

Ann spoke of "brakes". On a boat the size of yours, I surmise that there are already fairleads in the rail amidships. If there are not, that is certainly something I would wish to install. They, with appropriately placed and sufficiently large cleats, will, IMO, serve you better than a bitt ever could.

Double belaying cleats is anathema in my book [and probably in yours :-)], so cleats separate from the ones you have aft of the forward fairleads should be installed either fore or aft of the midships fairleads I find that it is more convenient to use what Ann calls "brakes" rather than springlines set up in the traditional way.


TP

[HopCar]

When I had my powerboat built, I installed a nice bronze bollard. It was very strong and looked very salty.

I came to hate it. I wish I had installed two oversized cleats instead. The cleats would have made it much easier to handle and adjust multiple lines.

[Jim Cate]

G'day all,

First, I was glad to see the defense of "bitt" vs "bollard"... good usage IMO!

Second, do remember that the putative bitt would be just forward of a deck mounted windlass. To me, this suggests that the deck would already be massively reinforced in that area, and thus the bitt too could be strong enough. Not as well supported as a traditional samson (sorry about the previous misspelling) post, but such is pretty hard to retrofit in a glass boat.

Are ye confused enough yet, Matt?

Jim

[GILow]

Hi all, just got back to this, great to read the well considered responses from all thank you, not a word has been ignored in my readings.

In no particular order:

Oops on the spelling, but in my defense, Googled it and still got a hit so I'm not the only ignoramus out there.

I was planning on a full samson (note spelling) post, as in all the way down to what passes for the keel at that bit of the boat, and I am fortunate that there is a very serious bulkhead to assist me, it being already reinforced to take the load of the staysail.

I do have very good midship cleats already, nice sturdy items, with matching fairleads in the scuppers. (Might have got some terminology wrong there?)

I can see the jury is out on whether to add a post or not but there does seem to be a general consensus to keep the existing cleats.

Starting to think the addition of some kind of pop up fitting up the front is likely to be the best solution to my needs of those suggested. I'll see what I can find in the catalog or in the local chandlers.

Thanks again to all.

Matt

[Snowpetrel]

I think it is a Nicholson design book that has a plan for a telecopic samson post made from metal. But it seems to me on a solid cruising boat its better to put up with the toe stubbing nature of a fixed one.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I do have very good midship cleats already, nice sturdy items, with matching fairleads in the scuppers. (Might have got some terminology wrong there?)"

Well yes, a little, but pedantry is a separate hobby :-)

Since you asked: A "scupper" is a hole - a port - in the bulwarks. I doubt that you have bulwarks, What you have is more likely just a low "toerail". Just inside the toerail, the deck planking bay be stopped short by the width of a plank in order to form a "waterway" that leads water on deck to the scuppers and thence overboard.

If you have grown-up bulwarks, there will be ports in them to serve various purposes. These sorts of ports are "hawses", or in some cases "hawse pipes". The hawse for the anchor rode is the notable one. There might also be hawses for leading lines outboard.

If you have a toerail, you won't have hawses. "Fairleads" take their place. Fairleads are fully closed. If a fairlead is open at the top, it is not a fairlead but a "chock". As someone said, I think it was Roland, hawses, fairleads and chocks are apt to chafe the lines. You cure that by "serving" them with a "leather" sewn onto the line where it lies in the hawse/fairlead/chock. But of course the easy way to "serve", these days in our sorts of vessels is just to cut a length of old garden hose, split it length-wise, slip it on the line and lash it in place with a bit of cod line :-)

TP

[Snowpetrel]

I think you will find GIlow has pretty decent bulwarks, at least by small cruising yacht standards. Probably close to 150mm high and solid glass..

[TrentePieds]

Never seen a Swanson 42. Now I have, at least in pics, thanx to Ms. Google.

What a lovely looking boat. Long may you enjoy her GILow :-)!

TP

[GILow]

Do I have bulkwarks...? I don't know. Very confused.

I've got a headache now, that's for darn sure.

But Trentepieds, based on your description, and SP's generous interpretation, I would say I have "little" bulkwarks or very grown up toe rails, with, maybe, hawses. Certainly the holes for the various mooring lines all go through the bulkwarks/toe rails with good strong fittings that have nicely faired and rounded faces on them to minimise chafe.

Solid glass... yes, we do have that. I just drilled a new skin fitting for the aft deck shower drain last month. The picture below is at the stern, a bit down from deck level. 26 mm thick at that point. It's really hard to find skin fittings that work on a one inch thick hull. It's closer to two inches down near the keel, the fitting for the engine cooling was a nightmare. The person who commissioned the hull build did not trust this new-fangled fibreglass stuff.

Silly really, a lot of useless weight, but I don't lose sleep over osmosis.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

Do I have bulkwarks...? I don't know. Very confused.

I've got a headache now, that's for darn sure.

But Trentepieds, based on your description, and SP's generous interpretation, I would say I have "little" bulkwarks or very grown up toe rails, with, maybe, hawses. Certainly the holes for the various mooring lines all go through the bulkwarks/toe rails with good strong fittings that have nicely faired and rounded faces on them to minimise chafe.......

If you have bulwarks then you most likely have Panama Leads rather than Fairleads.... good kit.... esp if you every go through the Panama Canal or visit places with a big tidal range....

Some photos of bitts and panama leads here.. https://www.pilbaraports.com.au/Pilb...aff7960e8f.pdf

[El Pinguino]

Oooops..... of course we have bollards on ships.... or at least we used to have them.... staghorn bollards.... used with rope falls on radial and Welan davits...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...nalCode=rmir20

No reason you couldn't have a staghorn bollard up the front on a yacht...

'pologies to any offended parties.... brain phart on my part....