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Old 03-07-2014, 19:09   #16
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Re: Sail life

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Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
I believe it is Selden but not positive. I also believe they say to hose the furler down so the bearings likely are not sealed. I am not at the boat so can't check the manual but I will definitely check that. Thanks !
If Selden it is likely Profurl and my Profurl 100 does not have sealed bearings (ask me how I know - LOL)

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Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Interesting !!
What is wrong with the 'one sail for all' approach as long as you don't want a sail for racing ? Could you elaborate a bit on this since I did ask for a quote on a new sail and it would be nice to incorporate any changes.
BTW, although I forgot to mention it for the new quote, I will probably ask for luff foam because sail shape really is terrible when partially furled.
- 150% furling Genoa
- Appropriate leech attachment for XXX furling system
- Deck sweeper/high cut (as appropriate)
- X.X Dacron material (unless you are getting fancy)
- XXX color UV protective strip on foot and leech
- Leech and Foot cords with cleats
- 3 panel foam luff insert
- Spreader patches
- Furling indicators at 130%, 100% and 70%
- Sailbag
- Telltales
- Observation window (if desired)

Sail measurements provided by buyer/sailmaker -

We had our guy do the measurements (in our presence) as we did not want to get in a fight later if the fit was poor. He sketched up the sail and took measurements to our winches and calculated sheeting angles with cars forward and aft. He was a real pro.

I think that's about all we specified unless someone has something to add...

Oh if you wanted to get "technical" you could specify the cringle/web construction attachment - we left it to him. On thing he did nice was add patches indicating Head, Tack and Clew. Nice when getting the "big assed" sail out of the bag and attaching it while on the foredeck.
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Old 03-07-2014, 20:01   #17
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Re: Sail life

JD, if it is from Selden in isn't Profurl, but will be a Furlex. If it is one of their older ones (like we have on our Genoa), it has grease points on both the upper and lower swivels. Lots of folks never follow the maintenance instructions and the grease gets old and lumpy, and this will greatly increase friction. If yours has reached that point it may help to flush the bearings with light oil repeatedly untill gunky stuff stops coming out and messing up your foredeck. Then force new grease into the bearings.

Even worse, if it has gone long enough the balls in the bearings may have corroded, split or just worn to the point of uselessness. The bearings can be disassembled and the balls replaced, but that is a job best left to someone familiar with the disassembly procedure. We had our local rigger do this as part of a rig and mast refit a couple of years ago and it made a "new" furler out of our 24 y.o. unit.

You can do a rough test of the friction level: with full halyard tension, loose sheets and no wind, the drum and the halyard swivel should turn easily by hand through all 360 degrees. If it does not, or there are hard spots, it indicates need for attention.

A luff pad will indeed improve sail shape when reefed, but it will never be as good as a dedicated sail of the correct size, and don't expect it to work beyond ~20-30% reduction in area. When reefed more than that it will still work off the wind ok, but the shape for windward drive gets pretty bad, with the draft deeper and migrating ever further aft... both bad things!

Good luck with it, mate!

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Old 03-07-2014, 20:12   #18
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Re: Sail life

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
We had our guy do the measurements (in our presence) as we did not want to get in a fight later if the fit was poor. He sketched up the sail and took measurements to our winches and calculated sheeting angles with cars forward and aft. He was a real pro.
Are measurements for the boat recommended - I asked for a replacement sail identical to the old which was the original Catalina sail. I figured that Catalina must know what they are doing ....

What do the sheeting angle calculations do for you, especially if you use movable sheeting cars?
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Old 03-07-2014, 20:18   #19
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Re: Sail life

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

You can do a rough test of the friction level: with full halyard tension, loose sheets and no wind, the drum and the halyard swivel should turn easily by hand through all 360 degrees. If it does not, or there are hard spots, it indicates need for attention.

A luff pad will indeed improve sail shape when reefed, but it will never be as good as a dedicated sail of the correct size, and don't expect it to work beyond ~20-30% reduction in area. When reefed more than that it will still work off the wind ok, but the shape for windward drive gets pretty bad, with the draft deeper and migrating ever further aft... both bad things!
Thanks, I will check the manuals. I am pretty sure I have some rough spots.

Unfortunately, if the wind conditions are such that the 135 genoa is not appropriate, it is well past the point of bringing the sail down and hoisting something else .... well if you have a boat fully crewed with experienced front deck monkeys then yes you can
Us mere mortals will have to make do and just furl the heck out of the sail and drop our highest pointing angle accordingly.
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Old 03-07-2014, 21:21   #20
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Re: Sail life

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
JD, if it is from Selden in isn't Profurl, but will be a Furlex.
Wow - What a brain fart - You are exactly right. I was looking at my manual reading Furlex and then wrote Prfurl - It's hell gettin' old!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Are measurements for the boat recommended - I asked for a replacement sail identical to the old which was the original Catalina sail. I figured that Catalina must know what they are doing ....

What do the sheeting angle calculations do for you, especially if you use movable sheeting cars?
Any good sailmaker will have the specs for the original sail and should not be a problem.

My boat did not come with a 150 Genny and was added. The sail was baggy and a poor perfomer.

Our car system is mounted on the cockpit rail with a turning block and the winches forward of the rail. Fully sheeted we have about 12-18 inches of free sheet and only about 12 inches of car travel

We wanted to ensure we had enough travel to twist and untwist the Genny when fully deployed. And have an idea how the sheeting would perform when reefed to 130%. I would love to have a longer car but the way our boat is it's not doable.

We have a second set of rails on the foredeck we use when we reef below 100%

I believe some people complain about furled sails and pointing but don't understand that the sheeting angle may be part of the problem.

When we are at 130% the sheet pulls more on the foot than the leech creating twist even with the cars fully forward. I have rigged up a tweaker at times (when racing) to adjust the sheeting angle and remove twist.

I also tend to carry the full genny above 20kts because of this but that creates equally difficult problems.
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Old 03-07-2014, 21:41   #21
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Re: Sail life

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I also tend to carry the full genny above 20kts because of this but that creates equally difficult problems.
You carry a 150 above 20 knts ???? Wow, hats off to you !

What I didn't mention in my previous posts - although it was 35 knts and I did have the full 135 out, I was playing in the slot juuuust under 30 degrees to the wind where the sail isn't flogging yet but has much reduced power. As I mentioned, I tend to furl the genny right around 20 knts otherwise. Part of the problem that day with the quick wind increase was that my initial tack took me away from the lee of the shore. Hence my desire to get back into the lower wind area where the full sail was appropriate.
A 150 would be nice on low wind days but I would be afraid of handling such a beast by myself.
I had thoughts of an asymetrical spinnacker on a top-down furler to cover the light wind situation but never did make the decision to go with it. Partially because I nearly always single hand and partly because I feel proper rigging requires a bow sprit and a custom crane at the top of the mast. The spinnacker crane currently up there doesn't seem to project the top very much forward and I am paranoid about getting the two furlers wrapping each other up and jamming.
If I had a light wind sail I would probably bring the size of the genoa down a bit to maybe 125 or so.
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Old 03-07-2014, 22:05   #22
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Re: Sail life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Interesting !!
What is wrong with the 'one sail for all' approach as long as you don't want a sail for racing ? Could you elaborate a bit on this since I did ask for a quote on a new sail and it would be nice to incorporate any changes.
BTW, although I forgot to mention it for the new quote, I will probably ask for luff foam because sail shape really is terrible when partially furled.
Well, I know this ruffles some feathers, but... there is just about everything wrong with the one sail approach other than convenience and low cost, and it is not a racing vs cruising debate.

The sail is too heavy and too flat in light winds, too light and too full in strong winds (and more so as you start rolling it), it moves up as you roll it, raising the centre of effort, which makes the boat heel when you don't want it... you cook it in the sun, and then partly roll it and try to use part of it under much higher loads, you deform it unevenly...

The list of "crimes" is long... BUT you don't have to go forward to change it and this seems to justify everything else for so many... realistically, it doesn't.

In my view, furlers can be a very acceptable way of efficiently stowing away the most often used sail, but they are not acceptable sail reduction mechanisms. Padded luffs help a bit with shape, but not with everything else.
Many sailors recognize and mitigate these issues by operating all-out or all-in and hoisting something else for stronger winds and this works much better.

Personally, I just change my headsails. I find that I don't do it all that often and I get superb sailing performance in the breeze, I sail high and fast with moderate heel upwind, instead of low, slow and at a high angle.
The initial investment is higher, but then jibs last very long, because they don't normally see as much sunlight, and genoas also last longer because they don't get trashed in strong winds.

The most unpleasant job is taking in the heavy working genoa at the top of its wind range due to the size and weight of the sail (43' sloop with a 64' rig from the water). After that, they are not that big and much easier to deal with.
Large overlapping genoas are worse, it is the length of the foot more than the sail area that makes the first change down a pain.

Maybe you can fit a wire forestay inside of your furling genoa...
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Old 03-07-2014, 22:10   #23
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Re: Sail life

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You carry a 150 above 20 knts ???? Wow, hats off to you !
Only when racing with crew... It's a rock and roll ride and we are heeling too much and we really have to play the gusts. We are pounding a lot and it is tough on the boat.

OTOH - We are heavy for our LOA - The "fast boats" are usually broaching at this point - we kick butt in heavy air...

If I figure it is going to sustain above 20 we bite the bullet and reef the genny to about 120 or less and live with the poorer pointing. This is usually indicated when the "fast" boats give up and start changing to number 1s...

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A 150 would be nice on low wind days but I would be afraid of handling such a beast by myself.
Short handed and cruising) I definitely start furling earlier - no need to kill yourself when beer cruising.

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I had thoughts of an asymetrical spinnacker on a top-down furler to cover the light wind situation but never did make the decision to go with it. Partially because I nearly always single hand and partly because I feel proper rigging requires a bow sprit and a custom crane at the top of the mast.
This is a setup I want. With a code zero on a furler I could dump a crew person and save weight! - LOL...

There is an outfit that sells a great sprit for the Maxi but I have the same concern as you for the top drum.

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If I had a light wind sail I would probably bring the size of the genoa down a bit to maybe 125 or so.
Here in the ITCZ we spend months of the year with low winds. There is a guy here with a Genny that looks to be made of spinnaker cloth. I have been meaning to track him down and find out where he got it made.

In light winds we are poling out our 5.5 oz genny and he cruises by with the sail full - grrrr

Don't know what all those mods would do to my handicap but I'd win a few races before the "whiners" started bitching and they rerated me...
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Old 03-07-2014, 23:26   #24
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Re: Sail life

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Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
SBIP

In my view, furlers can be a very acceptable way of efficiently stowing away the most often used sail, but they are not acceptable sail reduction mechanisms. Padded luffs help a bit with shape, but not with everything else.
Many sailors recognize and mitigate these issues by operating all-out or all-in and hoisting something else for stronger winds and this works much better.

SNIP
Agree with this. I have a self tacking working jib that does not overlap the main. I also have a big screecher on a six foot bow sprit. The screecher is cut rather flat to some extent because my catamaran moves the apparent wind forward. Both head sails are furled.

Since I almost always single hand I tend to reef the main early and often. Obviously there are safety factors. But another consideration is how this affects how long a sail will last. A small self tacking jib is much less likely to be damaged than a larger head sail that overlaps. A big screecher does overlap, but is not likely to be flying in anything over 12-15 knots; maybe a little less.

I have seen folks blow out a head sail less than a month old by flying it in twenty knot winds. So asking how long a sail will last is not easy to answer unless you know who is using the sails.
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Old 03-07-2014, 23:42   #25
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Re: Sail life

The idea of putting an old sail on "limited duty" seems reminiscent of what the old-time sea captains of centuries past would do; they'd use the old, patched sails for easy trade wind and doldrums sailing, but would switch to their best canvas before approaching the southern ocean.
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Old 03-07-2014, 23:43   #26
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Re: Sail life

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I have seen folks blow out a head sail less than a month old by flying it in twenty knot winds. So asking how long a sail will last is not easy to answer unless you know who is using the sails.
What does a blown out head sail look like ? I am assuming you do not mean ripped but just out of shape. I would be mighty pissed if I spent $2500 and I managed to ruin the sail in a month. Since I do fly the sail in 20 knts, it is really concerning to hear that it's possible to kill a sail that quickly.
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Old 03-07-2014, 23:49   #27
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Re: Sail life

Some books and videos show blown out sails or describe them ... draft position (most cupped deep part of sail) gets deeper and moves aft is a general notion.
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Old 04-07-2014, 00:16   #28
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Re: Sail life

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Some books and videos show blown out sails or describe them ... draft position (most cupped deep part of sail) gets deeper and moves aft is a general notion.
What he said.
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:33   #29
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Re: Sail life

In addition, an extremely blown out sail looks "puffy", as in fatter between the seams, not flat.

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Old 04-07-2014, 01:48   #30
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Re: Sail life

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What does a blown out head sail look like ? I am assuming you do not mean ripped but just out of shape. I would be mighty pissed if I spent $2500 and I managed to ruin the sail in a month. Since I do fly the sail in 20 knts, it is really concerning to hear that it's possible to kill a sail that quickly.
Here is a pretty good example... Note the excess material between the edges. This sail is not torn or frayed and was probably still in use.

Composite sails are design to delay the effects of stretch and maintain performance longer but you pay a pretty premium for advanced materials.

As Tomfl says, you can really shorten the sails performance life by abusing it.
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