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Old 07-01-2015, 16:22   #31
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Erika,

Something to consider when you attack it again is using a propane torch on it. The s/s and aluminum heat up at different rates, and you may have to bang the hell out of it with a short handled sledge hammer. What the problem is that the galvanic corrosion products take up more room than the bits did when new. Apparently they were not assembled with anti-seize. FWIW, anti-seize is a great friend. Other threads have arguments about which one is best, but so far, we use the kind that is very spreadable and has little bits of aluminum in it, and also just plain anhydrous lanolin.

Good luck with it.

Ain't bilge yoga a lovely term!

Ann
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:36   #32
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

I've just read this thread and was wondering why no one suggested simply tightening up the adjustment on the packing? Why assume that the packing was shot?

Now I read that OG has done just that! Sure hope that it works, 'cause getting those bolts out of the quadrant may well be fatal to the quadrant itself, or to the remover herself.

Good luck, Erika!

Jim
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:40   #33
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Erika,

Something to consider when you attack it again is using a propane torch on it. The s/s and aluminum heat up at different rates, and you may have to bang the hell out of it with a short handled sledge hammer. What the problem is that the galvanic corrosion products take up more room than the bits did when new. Apparently they were not assembled with anti-seize. FWIW, anti-seize is a great friend. Other threads have arguments about which one is best, but so far, we use the kind that is very spreadable and has little bits of aluminum in it, and also just plain anhydrous lanolin.

Good luck with it.

Ain't bilge yoga a lovely term!

Ann
I would not use a torch in a confined space such as this. I recommend buying or renting an impact wrench (electric or air) instead. They work amazingly well.
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Old 07-01-2015, 18:28   #34
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Erika,

Something to consider when you attack it again is using a propane torch on it. The s/s and aluminum heat up at different rates, and you may have to bang the hell out of it with a short handled sledge hammer. What the problem is that the galvanic corrosion products take up more room than the bits did when new. Apparently they were not assembled with anti-seize. FWIW, anti-seize is a great friend. Other threads have arguments about which one is best, but so far, we use the kind that is very spreadable and has little bits of aluminum in it, and also just plain anhydrous lanolin.

Good luck with it.

Ain't bilge yoga a lovely term!

Ann

Heat is your friend. Just use your logic and concentrate on heating the part which needs to expand more than anything else. I much prefer MAPP gas to propane. Buy the yellow torch canister, not the blue. Burns much hotter. 2000 degrees hotter. Heat parts until spit sizzles on it and no more, this way you won't damage anything. If it glows you went too far. I use a ton of MAPP, provides quick results.


MAPP gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Mapp Gas Vs. Propane Gas | eHow



http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page...k%3AMapp%20Gas



One of these is cheap and good for getting into tight places:


http://www.amazon.com/Mag-Torch-MT56...C2G1PKGF4GW6JQ


Excellent advice on anti-seize, especially with Nylox, which will gall easily without it on a long bolt. I prefer Never Seez.


http://www.amazon.com/Never-Seez-Pur...YHCT6Q33TYMNXA
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Old 07-01-2015, 19:45   #35
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Good luck, & Bravo for tackling such a tough job! I know what those kinds of tasks are like, all too well.

Another thought, which I may have missed above, is applying cold to the frozen bolt(s). Like Loctite Freeze-n-Release, or any number of other similar products/techniques. Sometimes shrinking a frozen fastener via this method will help as well.

Also, when you get the frozen fasteners free, there's the option of having inserts Heli-Arc'ed into the holes. It helps (with making fasteners easy to remove/adjust whenever you like or need to), as evidenced by millions of them in aluminum winches (and lots of other places).

And while I'm sure you're probably weary of the whole job, so the thought of one more task might drive you bonkers. But, think on putting a protective finish onto the quadrant if/when you pull it.

That, & I can't help but to wonder if it'd make sense to add a zinc or two to the rudder. Assuming that you can connect them electrically speaking, to the shaft. In order to mitigate future quadrant corrosion. That, or (in theory) rig a set of brushes to the shaft, & a wire from them to a deck fitting, where you can hang a zinc fish.
Comments?

Oh, & regardless of when you get to the packing job, & or the quadrant, as well as the hose. Replace those hose clamps like pronto. Preferably with the solid band type.
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Old 07-01-2015, 20:50   #36
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Good luck Brian and Erika. Just what you need....another boat project with this weather - Overnight - Clear, with a low around 23. Wind chill values as low as 12. Blustery, with a north wind around 20 mph, with gusts as high as 30 mph. Y'all stay warm!

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Old 08-01-2015, 09:48   #37
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I've just read this thread and was wondering why no one suggested simply tightening up the adjustment on the packing? Why assume that the packing was shot?

Now I read that OG has done just that! Sure hope that it works, 'cause getting those bolts out of the quadrant may well be fatal to the quadrant itself, or to the remover herself.

Good luck, Erika!

Jim
My hubby looked at me and asked me that very question( with a "why didn't you do that first" look).
I thought someone had come in before me and tighten the gland, but it turns out they tightened the hose clamps. Sigh.
There was a gap in the gland before I started working on it, that I closed by two to three threads when I finally gave up on replacing the packing. My thinking was that this packing was original, and if I could replace it, that would be best( project done). If I hit a wall, I would tighten the bajesus out of it and hope for the best( project still looming over my head).

As far as unsiezing the bolt. I don't think this is going to be like working on a bolt on a mast or traveler. This aluminium is very thick, couple inches in some places. I bet I will have to drill the bolts out. Oh if only they'd used a little Tef gel!! The confines of the space, I have about 4"x6" on each side of the quadrant. If we haul out, I may remove the seacaulks, to give me more working room. Be nice to take em apart anyways, clean them up.

Anyways, thanks for the great advice. i will let you know what happens.
Erika
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:53   #38
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

Drilling those bastards seems imposible in that location, you need to drill straight, here is another idea, the quadrant is made by 2 pieces clamped to the stock , the small one have 4 holes , 2 in the top and 2 in the bottom? and the other alu piece the same , its posible to slide a grinder with a real fine ss cuting disk in the gap between the 2 pieces and cut the screw in half? later you can work with the rest of the screws in a better location, workshop or dock.


Maybe?


I forgot to point that if you get rid of the nuts and the end of the bolts a sharpy chisel in the gap with a hammer can dislodged the 2 pieces...
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:11   #39
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Drilling those bastards seems imposible in that location, you need to drill straight, here is another idea, the quadrant is made by 2 pieces clamped to the stock , the small one have 4 holes , 2 in the top and 2 in the bottom? and the other alu piece the same , its posible to slide a grinder with a real fine ss cuting disk in the gap between the 2 pieces and cut the screw in half? later you can work with the rest of the screws in a better location, workshop or dock.


Maybe?


I forgot to point that if you get rid of the nuts and the end of the bolts a sharpy chisel in the gap with a hammer can dislodged the 2 pieces...
Well...

I guess all of our collective finger crossing wasn't enough...
Simple task of impossible proportions...

I think Neil has a couple good ideas here... Looks like your SS fasteners are "through bolts" and not threaded into the actual aluminum quadrant?

I like both cutting heads off and "pounding out" as well as cutting them between the gap... Don't cross slide hammers or air chipping hammers off the possible tool list... Neither possible in situ...

The good news is that you guys can cross the following of the worry list in the meantime...

***lying awake trying to sleep***
Erika - "Gee it would be awful if the quadrant ever came loose from the stock"
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:21   #40
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

NOTE: On reading through some of my wild ideas below for sorting out this problem, it occurs to me that if there's so much corrosion that the bolts are essentially welded in place, then the threads cut into the quadrant may be well & truly buggered already. Meaning that it's highly probable that in their present state, they wont be usable again. Non?
Thus either adding Heli-arc inserts wont be optional, but rather, mandatory. Or that tapping for slightly larger bolts may be a necessity, even though from some of the pictures, it's apparent that in some spots, there's not a lot of extra "meat" on the quadrant to do this.
- Anyway, it's food for thought, & please chime in if I'm way off base with my thinking on such.

Sometimes, when most other methods have failed (and or you're feeling bold), it's worth giving a frozen bolt a smack with a hammer, & then trying to tighten it 1/8th or 1/4 of a turn in order to free it up a bit. And then work on extracting it via a wrench in the normal manner. Albeit at times I've "rocked" the bolt back & forth a bit, meaning I got it out a turn or three, hit a snag, & had to tighten it up a bit again prior to taking another shot at pulling it out.
- The catch being that aluminum threads tend not to react the greatest to shock loads. AKA it's been known to destroy them.

Ah, one other CRITICAL item. So long as several of the bolts remain stuck, if you get one or two to move, don't unwind them much. They all pretty much need to come out simultaneously. For if not, often times, loosening one bolt by a lot will make the others that much harder to extract, as extra load shifts over to them if you pull just one or two out.
Although how much of this which transpires does depend on which bolt(s) you might be lucky enough to free up first.

And this idea's a fairly desperate measure. But if you can firmly support the quadrant on one side against the hull or a strong bulkhead, via wedges & blocks. And then find a support 180 degrees from your blocking, & insert a bumper or hydraulic jack. The compression & releasing of things a few times this way might be enough to loosen up the aluminum's hold on the bolts a wee bit.
- That, or try & accomplish the same thing with a Spanish Windlass, or something which you rig up with a bit of Spectra & a turnbuckle or three. And or a small, rigging type, hydraulic cylinder.

Other crazy ideas would be:
- drive some super slim metal wedges between the 2 halves of the quadrant to try & loosen things a miniscule amount
- seal up the lower half & sides of the quadrant, & freeze some water in between it's halves... you know, the expansion thing
- cold chisel, cut, or grind off the bolt heads, & then use one of the grinding bits for a Dremel to remove the center 2/3 of the shaft of the bolt (with or without a pilot hole to follow). Chiseling out the last fraction of the bolt shaft.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:27   #41
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

If they ARE thru bolts... maybe just go ahead and break them?
Heli-Arc? I think you guys mean Heli-coils?
...and when you are all done, be sure to coat the new bolts with lanolin or something...
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:41   #42
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

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If they ARE thru bolts... maybe just go ahead and break them?
Heli-Arc? I think you guys mean Heli-coils?
...and when you are all done, be sure to coat the new bolts with lanolin or something...
Hella-Ark???
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:49   #43
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
If they ARE thru bolts... maybe just go ahead and break them?
Heli-Arc? I think you guys mean Heli-coils?
...and when you are all done, be sure to coat the new bolts with lanolin or something...
Yes Sir, that's what I meant. It's been so long since I put any in that I'd forgotten.
One other question. In lieu of say Tef-Gel or lancote, does it not make sense to use a low strength thread locker? Thus things are galvanically isolated, plus have a bit of insurance against coming loose at the wrong moment.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:26   #44
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Ocean Girl,

If you have a dental pick you can use for it, they're great at snagging packing material...
A drywall screw works just as well if you don't have a real dental tool.

OOPS, too late.

Good luck.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:39   #45
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Re: Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

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A drywall screw works just as well if you don't have a real dental tool.

OOPS, too late.

Good luck.
Good one, Stu. Did you see the pics of the packing removing tool kits minaret has? Wow!
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