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Old 25-10-2013, 07:58   #121
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

We had u-bolts and a one piece plywood emergency hatch board drilled and fitted to the spinnaker pole for use as an emergency rudder. It was a fairly sturdy set-up.

The one piece hatch board was fabbed and put onboard in case we lost or broke one of the good hatch boards in heavy weather. It also doubled as a nice work surface and was drilled to hold the machine vice when needed.

I think it would be somewhat easy to lose a hatch board in heavy weather. Having a backup would keep the amount of salt water in the cabin at a minimum.

Today this note is from the desk chair and not the armchair. Oh and we had this engineered before we left on our two year voyage.
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Old 25-10-2013, 08:07   #122
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

FYI, Lagoon, part of Beneteau, uses square washers as backing plates for the cleats. I would bet that Beneteau uses similar, if not the same, washers. Some other French builders do the same (search in this forum). I would not trust the cleats to tow the boat. I am replacing mine with proper backing plates.

Also, the rudder posts are composite on my 450.
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Old 25-10-2013, 08:10   #123
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Quite frankly we would like to hear how these armchair critics/opinions ACTUALLY managed to set up their emergency rudder/temporary rudder. Like you and us (and I am sure many others) who have experienced total rudder loss, we can relate first-hand about the experience. Its easy to be critical when one has not actually experienced the situation.
Nice friendly open request for information and ideas. Consider that in many cases "poor planning causes poor performance." How does p**Sing all over the folks you are are soliciting advice work for you?
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Old 25-10-2013, 08:15   #124
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Actually, LakeSuperior, he was talking not to those who he was soliciting advice from, but those who gave unsolicited advice about about how he could/should have avoided the tow - two very different groups of people.
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Old 25-10-2013, 09:34   #125
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We have twice lost a rudder over the years.

On the steel mono, we just switched over to the wind vane.

On the FG cat, we hydraulically by-passed the port rudder and just continued to use the starboard rudder alone.

Do what ya gotta do! Have the redundancy built in, carry the spares, carry the cash, pay for insurance or hit that EPIRB button!
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Old 25-10-2013, 11:34   #126
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Thanks for all the responses folks. I will digest them all and follow up with what I can. In the meantime I attached the GoPro to a pole and albeit not a great video, here is the underside of the boat. I will try and take a better video for posting. I must stress that the rudder had been worked on before this happened after it clipped a rock. No other damage though. I am wondering whether there wasn't a hairline fracture that they didn't pick up and over the last two months it progressively deteriorated to a point it just snapped off.
Blimey, someone up there has got it in for you mate!
This sort of thing shouldn't just happen. Did you do any damage when you clipped the rock? did you get her out and look or just go under? If you had repairs done do you think they missed it you could go back and see what they will do for you - I am assuming it was recent.
Still important thing is you are all safe, boats can be fixed it just takes time and money but lives cant be replaced - and it looks like it was a close thing. Try to take it in your stride - after all we choose this life to escape the rat race so why bring all the stresses with you. Wish I could offer more help but other than moral support I cant. Chin up mate, they say worse things happen at sea so things have got to improve soon!
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:11   #127
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Thanks for the input. I really don't know whether stainless or the composite/fibreglass is the way to go. I think I will stick to whatever beneteau advise but am always open to other suggestions.
I would do as you suggested but if they recommend stainless I would ask them if the inherent problem with stainless has been solved and if so how was it solved. If they cant properly answer that question I would go with the composite. The problem will happen again unless they have redesigned the structure so the stainless is oxygenated. I don't understand why it wasn't designed that way in the beginning unless it wasn't the design but dirt, marine growth that created the situation? Anyway my friend, I'm happy you are ok cause if that rudder would have broken in storm or worse conditions you may not have been able to respond to my post
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:20   #128
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
Actually, LakeSuperior, he was talking not to those who he was soliciting advice from, but those who gave unsolicited advice about about how he could/should have avoided the tow - two very different groups of people.
Thanks Zanshin, helps me to not have to answer that post.
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:23   #129
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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I would do as you suggested but if they recommend stainless I would ask them if the inherent problem with stainless has been solved and if so how was it solved. If they cant properly answer that question I would go with the composite. The problem will happen again unless they have redesigned the structure so the stainless is oxygenated. I don't understand why it wasn't designed that way in the beginning unless it wasn't the design but dirt, marine growth that created the situation? Anyway my friend, I'm happy you are ok cause if that rudder would have broken in storm or worse conditions you may not have been able to respond to my post
Thanks yes, I guess you're right there. I have heard from the Beneteau rep in Le Marin, who has sent me the drawings of the rudder assembly to check he is looking at the right parts. We are hoping to meet with him Monday and get a better idea of timing and availability as well as price. In the meantime I am still trying to get a quotation elsewhere. I still think that the USA has a much better service and pricing but I may be wrong.
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:27   #130
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by whocares View Post
Blimey, someone up there has got it in for you mate!
This sort of thing shouldn't just happen. Did you do any damage when you clipped the rock? did you get her out and look or just go under? If you had repairs done do you think they missed it you could go back and see what they will do for you - I am assuming it was recent.
Still important thing is you are all safe, boats can be fixed it just takes time and money but lives cant be replaced - and it looks like it was a close thing. Try to take it in your stride - after all we choose this life to escape the rat race so why bring all the stresses with you. Wish I could offer more help but other than moral support I cant. Chin up mate, they say worse things happen at sea so things have got to improve soon!
Thanks mate, this time there was no rock clipping, just an inexplicable and sudden shearing off of the rudder post in about 8-9 thousand feet of water. Didn't strike anything. The rudder that floated away was intact.

I am working with the guys to see if they missed anything. The boat was hauled out and a thorough inspection done. I still suspect a hairline flaw in the post but time will hopefully tell. Appreciate the moral support, thanks.
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:30   #131
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Nice friendly open request for information and ideas. Consider that in many cases "poor planning causes poor performance." How does p**Sing all over the folks you are are soliciting advice work for you?
I am always open to positive contributions and constructive assistance and that is what I appealed for ... not a pile of rubbish. If people **** in my shoe, I will piss in their Bovril. I treat people with respect and friendship until they show they don't deserve it. Quite simple really.
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:51   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
We had u-bolts and a one piece plywood emergency hatch board drilled and fitted to the spinnaker pole for use as an emergency rudder. It was a fairly sturdy set-up.

The one piece hatch board was fabbed and put onboard in case we lost or broke one of the good hatch boards in heavy weather. It also doubled as a nice work surface and was drilled to hold the machine vice when needed.

I think it would be somewhat easy to lose a hatch board in heavy weather. Having a backup would keep the amount of salt water in the cabin at a minimum.

Today this note is from the desk chair and not the armchair. Oh and we had this engineered before we left on our two year voyage.
How did u attach the rudder to the boat?
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Old 25-10-2013, 12:59   #133
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by jkangas View Post
How did u attach the rudder to the boat?
Now that's the question!
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Old 25-10-2013, 13:08   #134
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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How did u attach the rudder to the boat?
Fortunately we did not have to use the system. The plan was to tie/lash the center of pole to the transom (had closed fairleads right on the corners for the series drogue) and use lines and snatch blocks on the end for steering. Did not test the system out as other options were not really available.

Our crossing crew was four able guys so between the lashed up rudder and drogues I am confident we could have made way.

Also, we had a full keel and barn door rudder so more likely failure would have been jammed or broken steering mechanisms. This means we would have been working against a jammed rudder.
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Old 25-10-2013, 13:09   #135
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
We had u-bolts and a one piece plywood emergency hatch board drilled and fitted to the spinnaker pole for use as an emergency rudder. It was a fairly sturdy set-up.
Did you ever test it out in sea conditions. I mean with some 3 - 6 ft. waves?

Ah, sorry, you answered before I asked.
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