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Old 24-10-2013, 17:35   #76
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
As I understand it, Beneteau switched to carbon-fiber rudder stocks because stainless rudder stocks, no matter how well built, WILL eventually fail from crevice corrosion and I give B points for trying to eliminate that ticking time bomb. CF is certainly a suitable material in every way, assuming the engineering was done properly for the load.

Speaking of which, Beneteau often has rudders available at their factories. Beneteau-US can be reached by phone, or Beneteau (France), whichever is more convenient they can figure out where the boat was built and if there is a spare. I'd have more faith in a spare from B than a custom job, especially from Foss.

29 hours of towing and the salvage claim is only $5000 EU? That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially given the number of days to and from port when they lost any revenue from fishing. Expensive, yes, but not unreasonable.
No, not for 29 hours towing if that was entirely necessary. They told the professionals that we refused assistance which was false. The tow ropes they used broke 5 times, each time taking about an hour to re-attach in the conditions. The professionals would have towed us more safely at 5 knots and not 2.5 knots. We endured severe porpoising and "banging". There is a lot more to this but that was not why I posted so I will not get into any questions further unless they are what I deem to be helpful.
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Old 24-10-2013, 17:37   #77
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Selfsteer.com $2500.00 and some custom fitting for the brackets gives you a stowable back up rudder. I thought it was pricey but after hearing about this it seems quite reasonable
Depending on what is left in our kitty we are definitely considering something like this. Unfortunately, we are the other feller, not Rockefeller lol.
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Old 24-10-2013, 17:40   #78
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Hydrovane is the obvious one, but very pricey unless you are doing ocean sailing.

The are also temporary rudders

Pete
That is a very helpful link, thank you. We will look into it for sure. Appreciate this sort of input.
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Old 24-10-2013, 18:26   #79
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
That is a very helpful link, thank you. We will look into it for sure. Appreciate this sort of input.
these are the beneteau dealers/reps in martanique,probably your best bet for an off the shelf new rudder

NET BOAT - SAINTE ANNE
Country : Martinique
Area : Antilles - West Indies
Contact details : Cap Ferre
Champfleury Lot. 3
97227 SAINTE ANNE

Phone : + 05/96 74 83 41
Fax : + 05/96 74 82 77
net-boat@wanadoo.fr
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Old 24-10-2013, 18:34   #80
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Guess most yards dealing with Bene's will know this, but just in case, here is the instruction on how to fit the lower rudder bearing. May be of some use to you.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Rudder+Bearing+Replacement.doc (28.0 KB, 118 views)
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Old 24-10-2013, 19:42   #81
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
No, not for 29 hours towing if that was entirely necessary. They told the professionals that we refused assistance which was false. The tow ropes they used broke 5 times, each time taking about an hour to re-attach in the conditions. The professionals would have towed us more safely at 5 knots and not 2.5 knots. We endured severe porpoising and "banging". There is a lot more to this but that was not why I posted so I will not get into any questions further unless they are what I deem to be helpful.
Thay had the same problem years ago with stainless prop shafts. What was happening if the shaft wasn't rotated for long periods the surface of the steel was not oxygenated by the water and eventually would fail. It wiuld fail ar rhw shaft seal. that is one bad thing about stainless. the surface was be in contact with a medium that has oxygen or it will fail. I'm nbot sure if todays stainless has the same defect or not the problem was noted back in the late eighties and nineties
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:26   #82
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
best get on to beneteau via the guys at le marin,probably carbon fibre if it is composite,and will need to be molded and autoclaved in an oven,using the correct technics and mold
Thanks for all the advice Atoll. I am waiting for the rep in Le Marin to get back to me. We tried to visit him at his office but it was closed. I have his details from a very helpful lady at the haulout facility in Le Marin.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:29   #83
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Thay had the same problem years ago with stainless prop shafts. What was happening if the shaft wasn't rotated for long periods the surface of the steel was not oxygenated by the water and eventually would fail. It wiuld fail ar rhw shaft seal. that is one bad thing about stainless. the surface was be in contact with a medium that has oxygen or it will fail. I'm nbot sure if todays stainless has the same defect or not the problem was noted back in the late eighties and nineties
Thanks for the input. I really don't know whether stainless or the composite/fibreglass is the way to go. I think I will stick to whatever beneteau advise but am always open to other suggestions.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:31   #84
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
My new boat has a fiberglass / carbon fiber shaft, but the one that broke looked like this after I dropped the remaining stock:


(I didn't get hauled until 3 weeks after the incident and was in Spanish Town, BVI in the marina, so the coppery-look is most likely electroloysis after the fact.
Thanks Zanshin. I am keen to see what the shaft looks like when it is removed. It is a composite/fibreglass shaft as far as I know and can see from the pics. I just don't know how to post pics here.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:36   #85
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Jesus, what kind of boat "usually loses the rudder" ?
I agree Rebel Heart, this is definitely extreme and completely out of the ordinary. It was no one's fault, it is just one of those things that happened. I am keen to get to the root cause if at all possible but this may prove to be more elusive than we are hoping for. If we do get to an obvious answer we will be sure to post here. I suspect that at best we will end up having to come to an educated guess but hopefully I am wrong.

6.5knots speed under full genoa and main, in 16 knots of wind on a Starboard broad reach with following seas offset from the starboard aft is hardly a challenging sort of condition for any boat, so this is a true mystery at this stage.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:39   #86
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by MARC D View Post
Bluewaters,

Like someone said, Le Marin is a BIG marina with a lot of Beneteaus and service guys. I would not be surprised the rudder you need is available somewhere in that bay. If you can't speak french, it's now time to make a new friend who do and then walk the entire place explaining your needs. I did that for an American friend last year and wish I still be there to give you a hand...
The very best of luck,

Marc
Thank you Marc, appreciate the willingness to help. My French is unfortunately not good. We did "walk" Le Marin a little yesterday. We hired a car for the day. managed to get the Beneteau rep's name and email address so will hopefully hear from him today. We tried to call at his office but it was closed. I did try and enquire about used/damaged Beneteau's but did not hear of any 50ft Oceanis' we could enquire about.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:42   #87
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Spade rudders work back and forth from the pressure of the water. They bend at the point where they are supported by the bottom bearing. In time they break. Grounding or a very rough passage facilitates the problem. Lost rudders are becoming more and more common as the fleet ages it seems. This is something I have been paying close attention to for about 6 yrs. I was even aware of this before 3 boats in one Carribean 1500 lost their steering about 5 or 6 yrs. ago. Some race events require that the boat be equipped with a tested emergency rudder.
Thanks for the input DeepFrz. Your comments make sense to me and seem quite logical. If this is the case though I am concerned that a boat that is only 6 years old had a rudder shaft snap in the conditions we were running in. I just wish that the conditions hadn't deteriorated after it happened lol, it would have made rescue one hell of a lot easier.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:44   #88
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Capt.Alex View Post
Do you have insurance? If so, I would think it would cover the cost of the tow as well as the repairs and shipping cost...Good luck. This thread just gave me the idea that we should have a new sub-forum for vessels in need of urgent logistical assistance. Either local knowledge for repairs and parts, or for cruiser to cruiser parts delivery or bartering. Any interest?
Unfortunately we only have 3rd party I think your suggestion is an excellent one re the logistical support. We have our hands full in our search for a replacement rudder and are very grateful for any input in this regard.
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Old 24-10-2013, 22:54   #89
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
By the way, towing a rudderless fin keel boat is not an easy process. Even when trailing warps the boat will swing side to side and put tremendous load on the tow line. To think that you would get 5 knots in a tow of this situation is just wrong. Luckily the fishers didn't try to claim salvage.
I am aware that it isn't easy. The professional tow boat person I personally spoke to by satphone a while after we ended in distress and with whom we accepted an agreed figure informed me that he has towed many boats in distress and 5 knots was his towing speed.

As far as your comment on salvage I do not agree. We are the owners, we were still on board and I was in full charge of our vessel as Captain. We had in no way abandoned the boat and both my wife and I were on board at all times, except for two swims that I made across to the fishing boat and back in order to agree prices and accept the tow assistance from the professionals. I made no indication at any stage that the boat would be abandoned. In fact I told them that if we were unable to get towing assistance, I would remain on board for as long as necessary to somehow get the boat sailing in a direction. I said to them that if push came to shove then my wife could be rescued.

Absolutely no question that salvage could ever have been claimed!

As an add-on:
My wife ultimately refused to be parted from me and the boat too. She was very brave under the conditions and if it were not for her I would have drowned on the 2nd swim back to our boat due to a strong current and increasing winds and waves driving me away. My strength was waning fast and had she not thrown 3 rescue lines to me in the manner she did, I might not be contributing to this thread today (this is no exaggeration but perhaps a story for another thread). In short, it made me realise that father time is working away at me and I am no longer as fit (or young) as I would like to think. It also reminded me of the fantastic woman I am married to.
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Old 24-10-2013, 23:05   #90
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Whenever I hear of this happening, it always seems to be without hitting anything, under water pressure only. I'd love to have a go at Beneteau, but this problem affects plenty of other manufacturers who fit spade rudders, and not just mass-production ones either.



*Ahem* exactly. Almost like rudder stocks are manufactured to act sacrificially in the event of collision. Which is better than leaving a big hole in the boat I suppose. Just a shame the collision force was maybe underestimated a bit by the designer...

Bluewaters, I know you've probably got bigger things to sort out than answering my questions, but how did the EPIRB get "wound round the propellor"?

Hope things are sorted out soon! Best of luck.
Thanks for your well-wishes, a fair question re the EPIRB. I waited for as long as I felt I could having had no response from the VHF distress call sending out my position. I used the manufacturers lanyard and in addition, tied a black nylon rope to it as extra security. It was the same length as the manufacturers lanyard. I set it off after securing it to the boat then threw it in the water. It was fine for a long time but unfortunately whilst being busy attaching the tow line to the bow it somehow went under the boat at the rear and became twisted around the prop. Without our attention focused on the epirb it snapped off and drifted away unnoticed until too late.

The lumpy 6ft seas, the wind increasing to 20-25 knots and the fishing boat that made a move that pulled our boat 180 degrees (no attempt to try and fault the fishing boat skipper), all contributed to the EPIRB being pushed under the hull onto the prop.

When I realised the problem I dived under the boat to try and retrieve the EPIRB but to my dismay, only found a tightly wound lanyard and rope twisted around the prop. It took about 3-4 dives with my snorkle and mask under the boat (being bashed by the underside of the hull and having some nice hard barnacles rake my back and arm lol), before I could free the rope and lanyard from the prop. Hope this gives some insight. In hindsight, perhaps it might have been better for me to release the EPIRB attached to the front railing or a cleat nearer the foredeck.
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