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Old 24-10-2013, 11:39   #61
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Bending or loss of a spade rudder seems to be an oft occurirng thing. Maybe not common, but common enough to make one have second thoughts. Hard to believe a solid...say... 2" ++ diameter shaft can be snapped off without destroying some fiberglass. Make a shaft too strong and it might be a boat sinker....


Lots of production boats have thick walled pipe instead of solid rod for the rudder shaft. I'm sure they'd tell you this was their reasoning...
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:43   #62
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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i would take it up with these guys,who build the thing,and are leaders in the field..............it is their specification...

www.jp3steering.com
I think I'll wait to be hired as a consultant after their failures!
The stuff on their site looks pretty high tech.... that usually means unproven and experimental in my mind.
"oh! your carbon fiber AC boat broke in half... even after all this computer engineering? OK let's revise the spec now".... haha
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:17   #63
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I think I'll wait to be hired as a consultant after their failures!
The stuff on their site looks pretty high tech.... that usually means unproven and experimental in my mind.
"oh! your carbon fiber AC boat broke in half... even after all this computer engineering? OK let's revise the spec now".... haha
they have a production line for rudders of production boats,as well as one off raceboats,

remember when you lot over there were still riding horses,we in europe had invented the automobile and been driving round in them for about 100 years,before they became popular in america

not even going to mention the americas cup catamarans.......though ben ainsley drinks at my local

Company Profile

JP3 was established in February 1987 based on years of experience in the aeronautical, nuclear and mechanical industries together with the field of racing boats.

There are two departments within JP3:

The Standard Department for production manufacture:

This department produces a wide range of Self Aligning Rudder Bearing and Steering System for Boats Builders (i.e. Nautor, Baltic, Fountaine Pajot and Dufour Yachts).

The Rudder Stocks manufactured in aluminium, stainless steel and titanium are checked to ensure their compliance to ABS norms (American Bureau of Shipping).

The Custom Department: which has two sections, Nautical and Non Nautical.

These sections have the capacity to study, design and manufacture special pieces of equipment, caring about every detail, ensuring optimization of materials for reliability.

"All the equipment illustrated in this catalogue are manufactured by a team of dedicated professionals in our workshops."

The reason why JP3 has become a reference for Steering Systems is because we are able to respect your requirements and respond with Creativity, Innovation and High Technology.

Jean-Pol ZOLLI
JP3 chairman.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:38   #64
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

While the poor chap's predicament hits me in the feels and I don’t want to hijack I’d like to learn something from this... I’m a very low time coastal cruiser with a couple of trips out to sea about as far as he was when the rudder floated off.. I’m interested in a buying a bendy as a future cruising boat, my question is would a windvane steering system have saved the day? Would this be enough (without the rudder) if used as a tiller or as a vane to steer the boat? They seem like a pain to fit to the the newer scoop sterns but worth it if you can get home...
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:41   #65
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Several windvanes are able to configure an emergency rudder
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Old 24-10-2013, 13:01   #66
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by toggles View Post
They seem like a pain to fit to the the newer scoop sterns but worth it if you can get home...
Hydrovane is the obvious one, but very pricey unless you are doing ocean sailing.

The are also temporary rudders

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Old 24-10-2013, 13:04   #67
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Selfsteer.com $2500.00 and some custom fitting for the brackets gives you a stowable back up rudder. I thought it was pricey but after hearing about this it seems quite reasonable
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Old 24-10-2013, 14:05   #68
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

As I understand it, Beneteau switched to carbon-fiber rudder stocks because stainless rudder stocks, no matter how well built, WILL eventually fail from crevice corrosion and I give B points for trying to eliminate that ticking time bomb. CF is certainly a suitable material in every way, assuming the engineering was done properly for the load.

Speaking of which, Beneteau often has rudders available at their factories. Beneteau-US can be reached by phone, or Beneteau (France), whichever is more convenient they can figure out where the boat was built and if there is a spare. I'd have more faith in a spare from B than a custom job, especially from Foss.

29 hours of towing and the salvage claim is only $5000 EU? That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially given the number of days to and from port when they lost any revenue from fishing. Expensive, yes, but not unreasonable.
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Old 24-10-2013, 15:14   #69
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

So many questions.
Did you deploy a sea anchor or drogue to stabilize your boat?
Was your engine working?
Did you attempt to rig up rudder to steer with?
Were you or any passengers in a life threatening situation or was your boat about to sink?
Why did you deploy the Ebirb if all hands and the boat was safe and secure?
Who are these authorities that you suppose were coming out to tow you to a boatyard and who was supposed to pay for their services?
If the tow line broke 5 times at 2.5 knts, why are you faulting the boat captain for not going faster?
When you agreed to 250 EU/hr, did you tell him you didn't have the money and he would have to wait around 5 days to get paid?
Is it always someone else's fault?
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Old 24-10-2013, 15:23   #70
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I was beside an Oceanis 44 on the weekend that had split it's rudder tube after tangling the rudder in a mooring line. The shaft was composite. The owner told me that Bene went to the composite shaft because of crevice corrosion problems with stainless steel. The rudder had been removed from the boat to allow for the repair and was undamaged.
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Old 24-10-2013, 15:26   #71
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by toggles View Post
While the poor chap's predicament hits me in the feels and I don’t want to hijack I’d like to learn something from this... I’m a very low time coastal cruiser with a couple of trips out to sea about as far as he was when the rudder floated off.. I’m interested in a buying a bendy as a future cruising boat, my question is would a windvane steering system have saved the day? Would this be enough (without the rudder) if used as a tiller or as a vane to steer the boat? They seem like a pain to fit to the the newer scoop sterns but worth it if you can get home...

How about a long full keel with a barn door externally hung rudder attached with large pintals and gudgeons.
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Old 24-10-2013, 15:29   #72
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by cburger View Post
How about a long full keel with a barn door externally hung rudder attached with pintales and gudgeons.


What's wrong with a nice beefy fin/skeg? Best of both worlds...



(They're pintles, dude).
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Old 24-10-2013, 16:00   #73
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How about a long full keel with a barn door externally hung rudder attached with large pintals and gudgeons.
And the appalling hydrodynamic efficiency to go with that ,.....

Dave
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Old 24-10-2013, 17:29   #74
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Boat Guy View Post
BW, good luck in getting it sorted....

I've got to ask... Is this something common nowadays? The posts make it seems like this isn't a big deal. I don't recall hearing about this on other older boats. It might just be because I wasn't reading forums. Are newer boats cutting corners. I'll happily take the discussion to another thread, if needed.
Fair question, I am no expert, to me it is not common but it certainly is disastrous.
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Old 24-10-2013, 17:31   #75
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzo b View Post
So many questions.
Did you deploy a sea anchor or drogue to stabilize your boat?
Was your engine working?
Did you attempt to rig up rudder to steer with?
Were you or any passengers in a life threatening situation or was your boat about to sink?
Why did you deploy the Ebirb if all hands and the boat was safe and secure?
Who are these authorities that you suppose were coming out to tow you to a boatyard and who was supposed to pay for their services?
If the tow line broke 5 times at 2.5 knts, why are you faulting the boat captain for not going faster?
When you agreed to 250 EU/hr, did you tell him you didn't have the money and he would have to wait around 5 days to get paid?
Is it always someone else's fault?
Please take your questions somewhere else. You don't know what happened and I am not about to discuss that here. We need help and will do everything we can to get through this. Now go away.
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