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Old 24-10-2013, 08:17   #46
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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BW, good luck in getting it sorted....

I've got to ask... Is this something common nowadays? The posts make it seems like this isn't a big deal. I don't recall hearing about this on other older boats. It might just be because I wasn't reading forums. Are newer boats cutting corners. I'll happily take the discussion to another thread, if needed.
I've heard it happen to Hunters with surprising frequency. From this board and stuff I've seen with my own eyes I count six rudders lost from Hunters in the two years I've been paying attention.

The fact that another manufacturer has this problem happening enough that there's a regular repair technique is crazy.
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Old 24-10-2013, 08:24   #47
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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I've heard it happen to Hunters with surprising frequency. From this board and stuff I've seen with my own eyes I count six rudders lost from Hunters in the two years I've been paying attention.

The fact that another manufacturer has this problem happening enough that there's a regular repair technique is crazy.
this is one of the reasons that race boats have twin spade rudders!
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Old 24-10-2013, 08:30   #48
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Bluewaters,

Like someone said, Le Marin is a BIG marina with a lot of Beneteaus and service guys. I would not be surprised the rudder you need is available somewhere in that bay. If you can't speak french, it's now time to make a new friend who do and then walk the entire place explaining your needs. I did that for an American friend last year and wish I still be there to give you a hand...
The very best of luck,

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Old 24-10-2013, 08:58   #49
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Spade rudders work back and forth from the pressure of the water. They bend at the point where they are supported by the bottom bearing. In time they break. Grounding or a very rough passage facilitates the problem. Lost rudders are becoming more and more common as the fleet ages it seems. This is something I have been paying close attention to for about 6 yrs. I was even aware of this before 3 boats in one Carribean 1500 lost their steering about 5 or 6 yrs. ago. Some race events require that the boat be equipped with a tested emergency rudder.
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Old 24-10-2013, 09:01   #50
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

By the way, towing a rudderless fin keel boat is not an easy process. Even when trailing warps the boat will swing side to side and put tremendous load on the tow line. To think that you would get 5 knots in a tow of this situation is just wrong. Luckily the fishers didn't try to claim salvage.
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Old 24-10-2013, 09:36   #51
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Do you have insurance? If so, I would think it would cover the cost of the tow as well as the repairs and shipping cost...Good luck. This thread just gave me the idea that we should have a new sub-forum for vessels in need of urgent logistical assistance. Either local knowledge for repairs and parts, or for cruiser to cruiser parts delivery or bartering. Any interest?
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Old 24-10-2013, 09:57   #52
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Hey Atoll.... does anyone actualy use 17-4ph for rudders? I would be real surprised it would be used on a boat unless that boat is dry stored, from what I know, (which certainly isnt everything about it...) it's immensely strong once it's precipitation hardened (thus the PH), but should also be very succeptible to crevice crack corrosion and corrosion in general due to the hardening and the carbon. If any welding is involved it's a bitch to get right and must be welded prior to heat treating. If useful as a marine alloy it would be great for turnbuckles, but havent seen any...
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Old 24-10-2013, 10:13   #53
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Boat Guy - when I lost my rudder I was, understandably, interested if this was a problem with my model and was told by Jeanneau that "this has never happened before". Well, it turns out that Jeanneau was being less than forthright, it has happened to 3 different Jeanneau 43DS over the years.

But rudder loss is very rare when not coupled with groundings or other issues. Loss of steering is more common and the two issues should not be confused.
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Old 24-10-2013, 10:23   #54
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Bending or loss of a spade rudder seems to be an oft occurirng thing. Maybe not common, but common enough to make one have second thoughts. Hard to believe a solid...say... 2" ++ diameter shaft can be snapped off without destroying some fiberglass. Make a shaft too strong and it might be a boat sinker....
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Old 24-10-2013, 10:41   #55
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Hey Atoll.... does anyone actualy use 17-4ph for rudders? I would be real surprised it would be used on a boat unless that boat is dry stored, from what I know, (which certainly isnt everything about it...) it's immensely strong once it's precipitation hardened (thus the PH), but should also be very succeptible to crevice crack corrosion and corrosion in general due to the hardening and the carbon. If any welding is involved it's a bitch to get right and must be welded prior to heat treating. If useful as a marine alloy it would be great for turnbuckles, but havent seen any...
i know of a gibsea 43,that i will be delivering once the rudder arrives!
is standard for the gibsea range of boats,dufor,swan etc
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Old 24-10-2013, 10:42   #56
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Frankly I don't see where the surprise is, spade rudders have been failing for years. If they were built properly (overbuilt) then it may be a real rare event. You can certainly manufacture an almost bullet proof spade rudder but just don't expect it to come from builders that build down to a price.
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Old 24-10-2013, 10:49   #57
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Whenever I hear of this happening, it always seems to be without hitting anything, under water pressure only. I'd love to have a go at Beneteau, but this problem affects plenty of other manufacturers who fit spade rudders, and not just mass-production ones either.

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Jesus, what kind of boat "usually loses the rudder" ?
*Ahem* exactly. Almost like rudder stocks are manufactured to act sacrificially in the event of collision. Which is better than leaving a big hole in the boat I suppose. Just a shame the collision force was maybe underestimated a bit by the designer...

Bluewaters, I know you've probably got bigger things to sort out than answering my questions, but how did the EPIRB get "wound round the propellor"?

Hope things are sorted out soon! Best of luck.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:01   #58
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i know of a gibsea 43,that i will be delivering once the rudder arrives!
is standard for the gibsea range of boats,dufor,swan etc
17-4PH:
"Alloy 17-4 PH withstands corrosive attacks better than any of the standard hardenable stainless steels and is comparable to Alloy 304 in most media.
If there are potential risks of stress corrosion cracking, the higher aging temperatures then must be selected over 1022°F (550°C), preferably 1094°F (590°C). 1022°F (550°C) is the optimum tempering temperature in chloride media.
1094°F (590°C) is the optimum tempering temperature in H2S media.
The alloy is subject to crevice or pitting attack if exposed to stagnant seawater for any length of time."

If they are using it, I think they are wasting their money. Monel would be a better option, maybe Nitronic 50?, and titanium might not be more expensive when the mfg issues are taken into account... I would call any area like a rudder tube. leaks into the rudder shell or rudder bearing "stagnant seawater".
Sorry for the sidetrack on the thread....
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:31   #59
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
17-4PH:
"Alloy 17-4 PH withstands corrosive attacks better than any of the standard hardenable stainless steels and is comparable to Alloy 304 in most media.
If there are potential risks of stress corrosion cracking, the higher aging temperatures then must be selected over 1022°F (550°C), preferably 1094°F (590°C). 1022°F (550°C) is the optimum tempering temperature in chloride media.
1094°F (590°C) is the optimum tempering temperature in H2S media.
The alloy is subject to crevice or pitting attack if exposed to stagnant seawater for any length of time."

If they are using it, I think they are wasting their money. Monel would be a better option, maybe Nitronic 50?, and titanium might not be more expensive when the mfg issues are taken into account... I would call any area like a rudder tube. leaks into the rudder shell or rudder bearing "stagnant seawater".
Sorry for the sidetrack on the thread....
i would take it up with these guys,who build the thing,and are leaders in the field..............it is their specification...

www.jp3steering.com
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:37   #60
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By the way, towing a rudderless fin keel boat is not an easy process. Even when trailing warps the boat will swing side to side and put tremendous load on the tow line. To think that you would get 5 knots in a tow of this situation is just wrong. Luckily the fishers didn't try to claim salvage.
When we were towed in we did 5+ knots. Had two drouges off the back. Fin keel, 19 ton boat.
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