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Old 20-11-2013, 19:00   #451
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I have been involved in building boats and ships since 1977. The hardest thing to accept is that, like any other project, is that the project triangle rules. That perfection is the enemy of production.

Good enough is just that. Tell me about perfection once you have attained it. Shoot for it but don't expect it. Not if you're working on a realistic schedule. One the best reasons for buying a production boat is the hope that the early design flaws in the run can be addressed. That is not always the case but it is something to hope for.

I have seen more than a few custom vessels designed by world class NA's and engineers that were badly flawed.

As for a spade rudder, while the tight quarters handling would be nice, I like the fact that when I grounded on an oyster reef and got caught in the wake of a tanker, my old full keel just took a few scratches.
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Old 20-11-2013, 19:08   #452
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Thanks Ann, have now also just arranged for the diver to come and fit the rudder tomorrow midday. At last, everything is coming together. I notice there has been some recent thread drift haha, but thanks to all of you who provided moral support and good wishes as well as some very useful information. Always appreciated. Boy, we're having a drink to celebrate at the moment (I hope it's not premature because people would hate to see a grown man cry lol).
I wasn't too worried about you brother..its warm where you are. thank you for your honesty and posting something we can all observe and make our own opinions .
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Old 20-11-2013, 20:04   #453
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Randy View Post
Thats the best news in this thread!
Thanks, couldn't agree more.
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Old 20-11-2013, 22:03   #454
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

think most epoxies will, and 3M's infamous 5200 might as well.


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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
you made a good point, thanks
From speaking with some 3M folks recently re. 5200. It has to be applied to dry surfaces. Then it can be immersed.
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Old 20-11-2013, 22:47   #455
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Its not the rudder, but if anything is protecting the rudder from impact .I'll put my money on a full keel/protected prop with emergency tiller steering .
I hope that's enough. That's what I bet on... Full length keel, skeg rudder, but still stuff happens. Boat ownership is a plot line with many twists, turns, and a few red herrings.
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Old 21-11-2013, 02:51   #456
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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unless you have unlimited budget, everything is a compromise. just because it glitters its not gold. Perfection is the enemy of good, perfection never ships product. Don't get marketing messages mixed up with engineering.


Take Beneteau, and say compare to say Oyster

beneteau has to build to a particular price, but because it sells large volumes it can afford expensive automated systems that Oyster cannot.

Hence euro for euro, you will get better value for your boat it is a Beneteau. that is you will get more boat ( note you will not get the same boat) , then if you spent the same money with Oyster, where in fact the same money will only buy you 1/3 of a boat,

WHat determines the selling price, obviously cost of goods, labour and then a market determination. To perceive it to be a luxury item, it must sell at a luxury price. If Oyster halved its prices in the morning , the perception would be they "cut quality"

Hence cause I buy a 35 boat for 100,000 and you buy one for 250,000 does not mean you are getting anything like 2.5 times the quality , in fact you may be paying for more GP margin in one case and higher labour, hence the cherry will be beautiful , but the basic boat may not be that different.

Dave

Dave,

Some-how I'm growing to love you.

Just when you piev-me...I get-you.

Keep poisting.

Lloyd
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Old 21-11-2013, 03:15   #457
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Dave's a good guy and very knowledgeable on most of this subject matter, he's given me good information on stuff I wasn't up to speed on but boy do we have a different opinion on this statement "but the basic boat may not be that different" In my opinion the basic boat is where "all" the difference is. Beneteau uses liners that are tabbed in place compared to Oysters old fashion stick built construction as does HR and others building high end boats. The basic structure of the two boats could not be more different in my opinion.
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Old 21-11-2013, 06:07   #458
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Dave's a good guy and very knowledgeable on most of this subject matter, he's given me good information on stuff I wasn't up to speed on but boy do we have a different opinion on this statement "but the basic boat may not be that different" In my opinion the basic boat is where "all" the difference is. Beneteau uses liners that are tabbed in place compared to Oysters old fashion stick built construction as does HR and others building high end boats. The basic structure of the two boats could not be more different in my opinion.

Ive been at this stage into most production and semi production boats factories in Europe.

Its important to not get too het up about say "stick built " and "liner built", one suits a high volume semi-automated process, the other suits a predominantly manual labour , low tech construction methodology. In reality each system has an advantages and disadvantages and both do actually stay the course as regards durability.

When you run into that container, neither system will protect you any better .

If you go to the factories say of high end companys, like say HR

what will you find

(1) Beautiful hand made furniture
(2) hand laid teak decks
(3) Expensive and well trained , time served labour.
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc

if you go to a high production operation like Hanse

(1) Machine laser cut and finished furniture
(2) No teak decks, or if so , laid as a pre cut "kit"
(3) Lower cost labour and very expensive automated production lines
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc


Both use cored hulls, similar GRP layups

Yes there will be differences in quality , they don't seem to translate to equivalent durability levels, however.

The price point will be dramatically different.

You think thats all going in the quality of construction , you will not see 2.5 -4 times the cost of construction when you look.

Market pricing and the cost of all that labour has a lot to do with it

furthermore you think say HR and Beneteau pay the same for Yanmars, Harken, Lewmar etc , really ?


Yes of course there is a quality improvement, but no where near the rate of increase in price, why do yo think manufactures prefer to build larger boats over smaller ones.

Im not trying at all to slag off any high end boat, they are beautiful examples of craft man ship and I envy those that can afford them. But Ive spent too long in production and assembly environments to not see where a lot of the money is going and it aint into the vessel.

dave
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Old 21-11-2013, 08:24   #459
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Thanks, couldn't agree more.
Let us know when to cheer and clink our glasses!
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Old 21-11-2013, 08:43   #460
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Hi, Bluewaters,

We're keeping our fingers crossed for you guys that today's work goes smoothly.

Ann
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Old 21-11-2013, 09:52   #461
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Hi, Bluewaters,

We're keeping our fingers crossed for you guys that today's work goes smoothly.

Ann
Ditto that! Please post when you're done (if you aren't sick of us by now) about the process, twists, and turns.

Cheers!
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:28   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Ive been at this stage into most production and semi production boats factories in Europe.

Its important to not get too het up about say "stick built " and "liner built", one suits a high volume semi-automated process, the other suits a predominantly manual labour , low tech construction methodology. In reality each system has an advantages and disadvantages and both do actually stay the course as regards durability.

When you run into that container, neither system will protect you any better .

If you go to the factories say of high end companys, like say HR

what will you find

(1) Beautiful hand made furniture
(2) hand laid teak decks
(3) Expensive and well trained , time served labour.
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc

if you go to a high production operation like Hanse

(1) Machine laser cut and finished furniture
(2) No teak decks, or if so , laid as a pre cut "kit"
(3) Lower cost labour and very expensive automated production lines
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc

Both use cored hulls, similar GRP layups

Yes there will be differences in quality , they don't seem to translate to equivalent durability levels, however.

The price point will be dramatically different.

You think thats all going in the quality of construction , you will not see 2.5 -4 times the cost of construction when you look.

Market pricing and the cost of all that labour has a lot to do with it

furthermore you think say HR and Beneteau pay the same for Yanmars, Harken, Lewmar etc , really ?

Yes of course there is a quality improvement, but no where near the rate of increase in price, why do yo think manufactures prefer to build larger boats over smaller ones.

Im not trying at all to slag off any high end boat, they are beautiful examples of craft man ship and I envy those that can afford them. But Ive spent too long in production and assembly environments to not see where a lot of the money is going and it aint into the vessel.

dave
Nicely put.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:10   #463
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Ive been at this stage into most production and semi production boats factories in Europe.

Its important to not get too het up about say "stick built " and "liner built", one suits a high volume semi-automated process, the other suits a predominantly manual labour , low tech construction methodology. In reality each system has an advantages and disadvantages and both do actually stay the course as regards durability.

When you run into that container, neither system will protect you any better .

If you go to the factories say of high end companys, like say HR

what will you find

(1) Beautiful hand made furniture
(2) hand laid teak decks
(3) Expensive and well trained , time served labour.
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc

if you go to a high production operation like Hanse

(1) Machine laser cut and finished furniture
(2) No teak decks, or if so , laid as a pre cut "kit"
(3) Lower cost labour and very expensive automated production lines
(4) The hardware will be mostly selden , yanmar, harken, lewmar, etc


Both use cored hulls, similar GRP layups

Yes there will be differences in quality , they don't seem to translate to equivalent durability levels, however.

The price point will be dramatically different.

You think thats all going in the quality of construction , you will not see 2.5 -4 times the cost of construction when you look.

Market pricing and the cost of all that labour has a lot to do with it

furthermore you think say HR and Beneteau pay the same for Yanmars, Harken, Lewmar etc , really ?


Yes of course there is a quality improvement, but no where near the rate of increase in price, why do yo think manufactures prefer to build larger boats over smaller ones.

Im not trying at all to slag off any high end boat, they are beautiful examples of craft man ship and I envy those that can afford them. But Ive spent too long in production and assembly environments to not see where a lot of the money is going and it aint into the vessel.

dave
Good points, but I'm going to have to disagree about Halberg Rassy. I was considering a HR42 several years back and they are great production boats, but much of the boat was machine cut and obvisouly done so with tolerances that allowed everyting to fit on assembly. One example is the Cabin Sole. The screwed down panels for the cabin sole were cut with so much tolerance that there was about 1/8" gap between them all. All these gaps , even on the seldom used display boat I inspected, of course were filled with grit , grime and debris. On a cruising boat that would be sand , bread crumbs etc. I was not impressed.
I'm not dissing machine/laser/waterjet etc cutting... it's a great repetitive process... if you build the rest of the boat to tight tolerances you can then make it all fit together properly. I'm not sure fiberglass helps y=them do this though.
The Japanese took over the auto industry by tightening tolerances. All the seams between doors and bodies etc were very uniform. Meanwhile, I toured the Jeep plant in the US (many years ago) and they were having to "selective assemble" the doors to the car because of the tolerance variation. so they had a stack of doors that they kept trying on the frame of the car until they got one that fit well.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:24   #464
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

If your going to use automotive examples to compare to sailboats look at the price of an M-5 BMW and compare it to a similar sized Hyundai...on a % basis it makes sailboat price differences look like the cheap seats. No shortage of customers with BMW but I guess its the same..the Hyundai does the same job and for lots and lots left.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:12   #465
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Bluewaters2812, how are you making out with the rudder install. Are you back on the road yet?
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