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Old 24-10-2013, 05:10   #16
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
you are probably in the best place,since it is a french boat,and there is a good chance that beneteau deal directly with Le Marine boat yard.
probably a few bene50's that are hurricane damaged lying around there!
rudder will most probably have to come from france,so using a french yard will be a bonus.
Tks Atoll. It would be great if we could find one at Le Marin. That is where we have arranged to be towed to from Case-Pilote. Will keep posting updates as to progress here.
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:18   #17
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by jkangas View Post
Ok just talked to Al. He just did an Oceanis rudder. Is your post still intact? He said the beneteau usually lose the rudder blade off the post and they can be rebuilt which will save you a fair amount of money. Tropical shipping can probably get the post to them. Got to get to work. We can continue this conversation in about 1/2 hour.
Very kind of you to help, thanks. I had to enter the water shortly after it happened. I managed to dive under the boat and reach the prop and rudder area. From what I could see in the rough seas in the short time I could spend underneath the boat, it seems to have sheared the rudder post right off a couple of inches below where the rudder post exits the hull. I have taken some pics of the aft lazarette/hold, showing the internal post, steering quadrant, autopilot etc all intact, no water ingress, no cracks, zip damage inside. Not sure how to post pics here though and if that will help.

I have a go-pro camera but the fishing harbour water is foul where we are and I currently have an open wound on my knee that is slightly infected, so am a bit concerned about entering this water at the moment, otherwise I could get a video of the underside.
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:31   #18
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Ok, I'm back. Bluewaters, e-mail Al @ bobwalker10@aol.com. He is expecting to hear from you and is ready to help.
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:35   #19
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Sheared the post? Frack. Does Beneteau not have a stainless post? That fricken Hunter had a composite post and that's where mine failed. The new rudder has a nice heavy stainless post which I have much more confidence in.
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:43   #20
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by jkangas View Post
Sheared the post? Frack. Does Beneteau not have a stainless post? That fricken Hunter had a composite post and that's where mine failed. The new rudder has a nice heavy stainless post which I have much more confidence in.
i hope they dont use normal stainless!
17-4ph is the stuff for rudder stocks,needs special treatment

17-4PH Stainless - Delivered Nationwide by West Yorkshire Steel Co Ltd
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:44   #21
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

I had my rudder on a Jeanneau 43DS snap right off at the hull join while at sea as well. I contacted Jeanneau directly and it took a bit over 3 weeks to get a rudder to me using expedited shipping (I was in the British Virgin Islands, there are worse places to spend time).

I know that sinking feeling when the wheel suddenly goes loose, the boat turns sharply into the wind and in my case I could see the rudder bobbing away in the waves so I knew that I was in trouble. At least there was no water ingression but it did take a day before I got a tow; I tried everything short of ripping out an inside door to use as a true star-board side rudder but combination of heavy seas and variable winds and a fin-keel made that a difficult task.
In my case the reason that the rudder broke off at the hull join was not directly possible to determine, but was most likely due to a hairline fracture due to a grounding before I bought the boat, coupled with crevice corrosion in a position where it could not be easily seen and the boat was kept in an electrically active spot so there might have been a year's worth of electrolysis to help the chemical and mechanical process along.
If you drop the remaining stock early enough a metallurgist should easily be able to do some forensic work.
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:49   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post

i hope they dont use normal stainless!
17-4ph is the stuff for rudder stocks,needs special treatment

17-4PH Stainless - Delivered Nationwide by West Yorkshire Steel Co Ltd
Foss didn't just get into the rudder business. I'm sure they are aware of the material requirements.... I'll check...
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:56   #23
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Not sure if I did this right but here is the rudder Foss built for me. Haven't posted a pic before.
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:00   #24
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Not sure if I did this right but here is the rudder Foss built for me. Haven't posted a pic before.
has that stock been welded on to the old shaft?
top left?
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:11   #25
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i hope they dont use normal stainless!
17-4ph is the stuff for rudder stocks,needs special treatment

17-4PH Stainless - Delivered Nationwide by West Yorkshire Steel Co Ltd
They used 316 stainless which is better than 304 for corrosion resistance. From what I see on the web, 17-4ph and 316 are comparable for corrosion resistance...
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:12   #26
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Quote:
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has that stock been welded on to the old shaft?
top left?
No, the old shaft was composite.
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:15   #27
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by jkangas View Post
They used 316 stainless which is better than 304 for corrosion resistance. From what I see on the web, 17-4ph and 316 are comparable for corrosion resistance...
yes but about 5 times weaker than 17-4ph.
316 is not the correct material for a spade hung rudder,as it is liable to bend!
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:31   #28
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yes but about 5 times weaker than 17-4ph.
316 is not the correct material for a spade hung rudder,as it is liable to bend!
Just looked at the material properties.
17-4ph. 316
Ult strength 210000 75000
Yield strength. 170000 30000
MOE 285000000. 28000000

So I see what you are saying. I guess it comes down to how much force it takes to rip the glass/foam blade off the post. How strong is strong enough. Things that make one go hmmmm. Guess I'll try and keep the rudder off the bottom so I don't have to find out.
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:50   #29
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by jkangas View Post
Just looked at the material properties.
17-4ph. 316
Ult strength 210000 75000
Yield strength. 170000 30000
MOE 285000000. 28000000

So I see what you are saying. I guess it comes down to how much force it takes to rip the glass/foam blade off the post. How strong is strong enough. Things that make one go hmmmm. Guess I'll try and keep the rudder off the bottom so I don't have to find out.
the bottom of the rudder will probably break off if hitting the bottom!
but the 316 is liable to be bent as well!

more likely scenario is hitting something or falling off a wave whilst sailing!

this is why you have the difference in tensile strength needed for spade hung rudders,where all the force/tortion is concentrated on one point where it exits the hull
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:55   #30
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So you're saying the shaft may be bent by water force alone. Man I hope you're wrong. We sailed through some pretty wild **** when we brought the boat from Grand Cay to Charleston. Guess time will tell. Thanks for giving me something new to worry about :-).
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