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Old 29-10-2013, 10:45   #256
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Taking the position that out of thousands of boats built only a few dozen have rudder failures due to under building or poor quality control is not acceptable to many people. Some of these boats had prior damage and those boats can't be criticized but many had no prior damage and just failed. Its just getting more and more common.
Please then quotes such failures. and furthermore can you point to specific conclusions where such failures were due to "under building or poor quality control ". Otherwise its just the crap internet rumor mill at work.

By all means make claims , but without specific backup , its all just nonsense.

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Old 29-10-2013, 10:54   #257
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Taking the position that out of thousands of boats built only a few dozen have rudder failures due to under building or poor quality control is not acceptable to many people. Some of these boats had prior damage and those boats can't be criticized but many had no prior damage and just failed. Its just getting more and more common.
If you were building aircraft and told a customer that only 2-3% of the aircraft you were building would have a rudder failure absolutely no one would buy from you. If the airline told customers that 99 out a hundred flights would arrive safely no one would buy a ticket from them.
Moody built a boat in the late 70's early eighties that lost a rudder/skeg during an offshore trip and the resulting lawsuit did a great deal of damage to their otherwise good reputation built over many years. These days it seems that its acceptable to lose a certain percentage of rudders on boats, after all they weren't expensive cruisers so what would you expect? I think people do more due diligence when buying a flat screen TV than purchasing a sailboat.
The only thing worse than people not doing their research is making up statistics. Are you really stating that 2-3 out of 100 boats of any particular manufacturer experience complete rudder failure?

One of the difficulties is that in the boating world, much of the "evidence" is anecdotal, and not statistically significant. You may hear about certain boats experiencing component failures, but it may just be that those are the boats more people are sailing.
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Old 29-10-2013, 10:57   #258
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

I know of Hunter marine that had 16 rudder failures. There are several posters here that have said their own rudders failed. Bavaria has had several failures that have been documented as have other builders. I grant you that everything I have read has come from yachting mags, people on this forum that claim to have had rudder failures and the Hunter Owners Group as well as other Owners groups (example Elan). It might all be nonsense and maybe on one has really had rudder failures in which case I would of course change my opinion.
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Old 29-10-2013, 11:01   #259
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I know of Hunter marine that had 16 rudder failures. There are several posters here that have said their own rudders failed. Bavaria has had several failures that have been documented as have other builders. I grant you that everything I have read has come from yachting mags, people on this forum that claim to have had rudder failures and the Hunter Owners Group as well as other Owners groups (example Elan). It might all be nonsense and maybe on one has really had rudder failures in which case I would of course change my opinion.
Over what period of time? How many were produced? Was there damage before the failure? Is your source primarily opinion, or are you using some kind of common and reliable reporting mechanism? Are you comparing to another manufacturer using the same measure? Did the same component fail, or was it a different problem?

That certainly is a start.
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Old 29-10-2013, 11:04   #260
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

We are only talking about rudder failure as it pertains to snapping the shaft, correct?

The Bavaria failures I know about were from delamination and splitting of the fiberglass skin, not a problem with the shaft. They were still "steerable" by the rudder webbing and remaining foam, but squirrely and soft. Many other rudder failures in the past were also not shaft failures.

Hunter did have shaft failures.

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Old 29-10-2013, 11:08   #261
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Over what period of time? How many were produced? Was there damage before the failure? Is your source primarily opinion, or are you using some kind of common and reliable reporting mechanism? Are you comparing to another manufacturer using the same measure?

See? Nonsense. Stop trying to defend it.
exactly, its like the brouhaha that arose after the Bavaria Match lost its keel. yet few bothered to read the subsequent reports as to how teh keel had been treated and modified. Then all the "internet " just fed the rumor mill.

Its a serious subject , when you go looking for documented failures arising from rudder or keel failures, You find few , very few instances and many of those have "complications". For example see the Megawatt sinking of Northern Ireland. This was documented in an official accident report. ( This was a Hanse)

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Old 29-10-2013, 11:49   #262
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

internet boats have 10 times the rudder failure rate as boats in the water

maybe because internet boats spend 90% of their passages during perfect storms and hurricanes



I just made that up but it may be a low estimate
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Old 29-10-2013, 12:23   #263
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I know of Hunter marine that had 16 rudder failures. There are several posters here that have said their own rudders failed. Bavaria has had several failures that have been documented as have other builders. I grant you that everything I have read has come from yachting mags, people on this forum that claim to have had rudder failures and the Hunter Owners Group as well as other Owners groups (example Elan). It might all be nonsense and maybe on one has really had rudder failures in which case I would of course change my opinion.

Yes and all of those rudders were built by that company in Florida the other OP on here is advocating for.
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Old 29-10-2013, 12:27   #264
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I know of Hunter marine that had 16 rudder failures. There are several posters here that have said their own rudders failed. Bavaria has had several failures that have been documented as have other builders. I grant you that everything I have read has come from yachting mags, people on this forum that claim to have had rudder failures and the Hunter Owners Group as well as other Owners groups (example Elan). It might all be nonsense and maybe on one has really had rudder failures in which case I would of course change my opinion.
I personally don't know about Hunters Rudders+++++ But I have personally witnessed Boatyards removing and repairing 9 Hunter wing keels of all sizes:conf used:
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Old 29-10-2013, 12:37   #265
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

OK OK OK ! There must be a way to build a long lasting highly loaded SPADE Rudder That doesn't cost a fortune...... Beneteau was trying to make one using plain fiberglass /polyester and that didnt work .It broke because polyester will crack when subject to many load cycles-it also had a foam core which is ok for getting the rough shape but of no strength---------What is this way? I say FG Matrix 1780 interspersed with Kevlar cloth for both shaft and blade................What say you???
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Old 29-10-2013, 12:51   #266
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
Beneteau was trying to make one using plain fiberglass /polyester and that didnt work .It broke because polyester will crack when subject to many load cycles-it also had a foam core which is ok for getting the rough shape but of no strength---------

What say you???
I say you have no proof of this at all. The OP already stated that it had been run aground by a previous owner.

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Old 29-10-2013, 13:16   #267
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Op did not state that at all- he said "could have" However he has done considerable cruising since he obtained the boat--and that Rudder post gave way in moderate conditions.
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Old 29-10-2013, 13:19   #268
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

PS Running aground is also a "load cycle"
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Old 29-10-2013, 13:22   #269
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

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Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
Op did not state that at all- he said "could have" However he has done considerable cruising since he obtained the boat--and that Rudder post gave way in moderate conditions.
Oh, come on, I understand this is the internet, but really....

Rudder nightmare at sea

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I must stress that the rudder had been worked on before this happened after it clipped a rock.
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Old 29-10-2013, 14:56   #270
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Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

The problem lies in the fact that none of these failures are mandated to be reported unless there is loss of life, serious injury or on a commercial ship. Many owners will not report these types of problems for fear of reducing the value of their boats. Builders sure wont publicize these failures, in fact few manufacturers will announce any kind of failure and there are no mandatory recalls that I am aware of in the pleasure craft industry. So all we have to go by are the few accidents reported on forums and the few that make the news.
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