Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-10-2013, 12:15   #181
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,198
Images: 52
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
I have taken some pics of the snapped rudder post folks. I welcome any input on what you see.

Hope I have got it right to attach the pics?

Attachment 69358

Attachment 69359

Attachment 69360

Attachment 69361

Thats a foam core in the center. It looks like it may have been severely damaged at an earlier date. Looks like the layup has been wet inside for some time. Heavy salt buildup?

Usually a tube like this is machine pultruded. Basically the glass fiber is woven around a mandrel. This looks like a different method may have been used. Usually a machine woven tube has some visible weave at the surface. This looks too uniform and suspiciously rich. I would be curious to know by what method it was built. Looks like mostly double bias, I don't see any obvious uni fibers.
__________________

__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:17   #182
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Thats a foam core in the center. It looks like it may have been severely damaged at an earlier date. Looks like the layup has been wet inside for some time. Heavy salt buildup?

Usually a tube like this is machine pultruded. Basically the glass fiber is woven around a mandrel. This looks like a different method may have been used. Usually a machine woven tube has some visible weave at the surface. This looks too uniform and suspiciously rich. I would be curious to know by what method it was built. Looks like mostly double bias, I don't see any obvious uni fibers.
Thanks for your input. All a bit over my head I,m afraid, as I have no clue as to the various methods used.
__________________

__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:18   #183
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Maybe send a PM to minaret and ask him to look at your pictures and comment. Looks like a very poor layup with large voids to me, but I must admit I am no expert.

Ooops, he was already here...lol.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:25   #184
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Maybe send a PM to minaret and ask him to look at your pictures and comment. Looks like a very poor layup with large voids to me, but I must admit I am no expert.

Ooops, he was already here...lol.
Thanks, Minaret was quick on the draw.
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:26   #185
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,198
Images: 52
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

In this pic you can see where they brushed it with gelcoat after they had lost the chemical bond. Now the gel is flaking off. Where it has already flaked off you can see the original layup clearly. It looks super rich to me. If that was my boat I'd cut a small sample of it and burn test it for resin/fiber ratio. I bet it's way off.

That would certainly be just one (probably very important) factor. The other is that this is a terrible design. All the load is put right on the edge of the lower bearing, right where it failed. This is not a good place for composites.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0128.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	398.4 KB
ID:	69363  
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:29   #186
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
In this pic you can see where they brushed it with gelcoat after they had lost the chemical bond. Now the gel is flaking off. Where it has already flaked off you can see the original layup clearly. It looks super rich to me. If that was my boat I'd cut a small sample of it and burn test it for resin/fiber ratio. I bet it's way off.

That would certainly be just one (probably very important) factor. The other is that this is a terrible design. All the load is put right on the edge of the lower bearing, right where it failed. This is not a good place for composites.
I really appreciate this input. I am just wondering whether I should put this to Beneteau themselves and see whether they were responsible for the build of the this rudder post?
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:30   #187
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 416
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Thank you for the encouragement, much appreciated. You are right and I am happy to learn and have others learn from all of this if there is anything new that can be added to our collective experience. I guess it would be naive to think the world does not have people we can do without lol.

I am thick skinned though. I just honestly want to get on with the important things now and we are truly greatful to everyone here who has contributed with some sound advice, encouragement and the like. I had a long chat via Skype yesterday with a gentleman in Melbourne, Florida (Jon Thomas). He was fantastically supportive and encouraging and I am going to see if I can follow up on his advice and make a temporary rudder while we wait for Beneteau to respond and provide us with prices and delivery time frames. I am not great with my hands but it's never too late to try.

Being a weekend on this French Island, Island time has kicked in solidly so we will have an uphill struggle to get materials. My motto to my kids has always been "NEVER GIVE UP".
Wow, you have trouble using your hands and you are a sailor??.......Ahh, I get it your one of those guys that has procured a crew of beautiful young mermaids...te..he...

All kidding aside, the fact is so many over the years just disappeared into the vast oceans of our world over incidents like what happened to you. You didn't, and are still able to enjoy life and put this bad thing behind you.
__________________
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:33   #188
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,198
Images: 52
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
I really appreciate this input. I am just wondering whether I should put this to Beneteau themselves and see whether they were responsible for the build of the this rudder post?



Very likely they are. Looks like in the above pic somebody used a dull object to write the lettering in the wet layup? Are the letters impressed into the glass? If so it was written at the factory when built. Pretty common, especially with infusion. Then you are just writing on the bag surface.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 12:52   #189
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Wow, you have trouble using your hands and you are a sailor??.......Ahh, I get it your one of those guys that has procured a crew of beautiful young mermaids...te..he...

All kidding aside, the fact is so many over the years just disappeared into the vast oceans of our world over incidents like what happened to you. You didn't, and are still able to enjoy life and put this bad thing behind you.

Haha, the Admiral says thanks ... she has not been called a beautiful mermaid before lol. Jokes aside, she is to me.

Your comment makes me feel that I did do something right
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 13:10   #190
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

I really hope that a fiberglass expert can do an analysis of the remnants, the pictures look worrisome but don't say anything to me regarding the possible cause. The inner core looks like non-structural foam used to start the lay-up process. I am surprised by the Cyclades rudder on an Oceanis, but the serial number will make tracking somewhat simpler.
What are you plans once you have a rudder? Are you heading north? I'll be back in about 3 weeks and heading south.
__________________
-Zanshin (SV Zanshin)
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 13:11   #191
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Very likely they are. Looks like in the above pic somebody used a dull object to write the lettering in the wet layup? Are the letters impressed into the glass? If so it was written at the factory when built. Pretty common, especially with infusion. Then you are just writing on the bag surface.
It does seem like it was written when it was "wet".
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 13:14   #192
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
I really hope that a fiberglass expert can do an analysis of the remnants, the pictures look worrisome but don't say anything to me regarding the possible cause. The inner core looks like non-structural foam used to start the lay-up process. I am surprised by the Cyclades rudder on an Oceanis, but the serial number will make tracking somewhat simpler.
What are you plans once you have a rudder? Are you heading north? I'll be back in about 3 weeks and heading south.
Thanks Zanshin, we will head North to St Martin but are happy to divert if we can meet up and you could have a look if that's what you are thinking. Intention is to head to St. Martin, then Puerto Rico, then Turks then Miami.
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 14:21   #193
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

I will be in St Martin as soon as this big cloud goes over so I would love to see it and have a look (and buy you a very small beer to help comiserate).


Mark
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 14:25   #194
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I will be in St Martin as soon as this big cloud goes over so I would love to see it and have a look (and buy you a very small beer to help comiserate).


Mark
Thanks Mark, let's hope we can get there ... we will reciprocate. I love beer haha.
__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2013, 16:20   #195
Registered User
 
Bluewaters2812's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cruising
Boat: Not a Beneteau!
Posts: 911
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Bluewaters2812
Re: Rudder nightmare at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
If the rudder post fitting is anything like the 473 and other bendy models, the lower bearing may have come lose (only held in place with Sikaflex or similar, and it may drop out with the post. Make sure what ever you use to catch the post will be able to catch the bearing as well.
I think the bearing costs about $150, dont want to lose it.
Thanks Nigel1,

Have two bearings attached to the post that I caught in the net. You are right, they had to use a "glue"/Sikaflex or the like for a bearing. Doesn't seem like I have lost anything.
__________________

__________________
Bluewaters2812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.