Restoration: Wheel

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pblais

3M starts with the green. It's not a bad beginning. I would not have used anything lower than 60 and you can get to 150 quick enough. You won't get it perfect but once it gets looking good it will finish nice. If you got heavy with the heat gun it may have some burn marks. The 3M won't be too bad and should smooth it up. 150 sand paper will get you almost done.

I have one to do as well just like yours but the next size bigger. Don't take it apart! Don't think about removing the ring around the middle. My hub is very pitted and I'm not sure what I'll do for that. Nice wheels (hideously expensive) and it would be nice to get it looking good again. Don't try for perfection. It's earned some battle scars so go with it. Maybe you can put some new ones in it too.

The teak isn't asian teak so it just does not have the natural oil content. The "modern not really teak" has only about 1/3 the natural oil. The asian teak looks like it is bleeding when you sand it because it's so rich in oil and a fire engine red dust comes off it. A daily scrub of salt water will keep the real stuff proper almost forever.

The new stuff won't. The daily part keeps it from drying out and splitting. Salt water cleans quite well. There are a lot of finishes. A spar varnish will look high glossy. I can't say I like the feel but it holds up. Something like a Semco natural finish looks nice and adds the slightest bit of color and seals the wood. A little sealer isn't a bad idea as the oil in your hands will get to it over time. They have other pigment levels too. It's easy to clean up too. I wouldn't use teak oil. It looks OK for a week and it's greasy for a while until you need to do it again. Watco aka linseed oil is nice but it takes a lot of coats dried in between. It's nice for furniture and fine cabinets though.

If the cockpit is open use a canvas wheel cover. UV trashes everything.

Last thing. We want pictures of it done!

Damn... I keep forgetting you guys use the Equadorian teak thats lighter and less resiliant than the good stuff...

[zeehag]

green and the brown work-i use the brown sparingly and mostly us green 3m pads-- be careful of the grain so it doesnt turn out like my curlies-- i toasted one in this process.
the black stuff is dirt. add a smidgeon of joy soap to the sea water and rinse with more sea water

[McSalty]

Originally Posted by zeehag

...joy soap....

And I thought my English was decent enough - but that term I dont know?
What soap would be "mixable" with Saltwater?

By the way: Went with your advice and started scrubbing the deck with Saltwater, and saltwater only. Results are remarkable (even so my back is hurting! This is where large boat size IS PUNISHING! LOL)

I have started to scrape the loose and flaky varnish off the superstructure. Some varnish is still stuck, that I will start to remove today with Hempels Varnish remover and light scraping (mindful of not too much of that stuff actually falling onto the deck to cause discoloration of the teak there ..... don't know, but its chemicals after all)

Once I am through with that I will try the "green Scotchpad" even so they don't carry that color in the chandlery (?) but the household ones are green, correct?

Let it dry and see if I have a more or less even color, if not start with 80grit sanding, if yes, start with 120 grit sanding.

That I will follow with 2 coats 50% Epifarnes, & 1 coat of 70%
wait 48 hours
Rub it slightly down with 150 grit
Add 2 coats of 90% Epifarnes
wait 24 hours between coats
sand with 240 grit
Add 8 more coats (w/same waiting time inbetween) with 240 sanding between every other coat.

Does that sound like a plan?

[cabo_sailor]

Personally I am not a fan of epiphane, I prefer Z-spar Flagship, but others like it so I'll leave that be. You really only need one coat of the 50% mixture, followed by the one coat of 70% mixture. You're really only trying to seal the grain. I would skip the 150 grit and just go with the 240. Here in the states the standard would be 220 grit. The first few coats are not going to look very good. By coat number 5 you will have a large grin, but that's too thin and will only last a few months. Build it up to a grand total of 8-10 coats, thin ones mind you, and you will have a thing of beauty that about once a year will need a quick sanding with 240, a wipe down with mineral spirits, and a couple of coats more to go another year.

Use whatever brush you prefer but my own preference is for the Jen Poly Brush. Its a disposable foam brush but unlike the ones from regular hardware stores it does not disintegrate. In the U.S. they are available from ACE Hardware stores and the marine supplier Jamestown Distributors. I usually buy a box of 4 dozen from Jamestown (I've found the 2 in brush the most versatile.) Second suggestion, after the first two sealant coats are on, add a bit of Penetrol to the varnish, just as if you were thinning the varnish with mineral spirits. The addition will help remove any brushmarks. Remember more thin coats will look better than fewer thick coats, those tend to get orange peel textures that you will have to sand out. On the poly brush I only dip the bottom most tip into the varnish. The tips are beveled and so I only use the bottom half of the bevel. It's taken me many years but for myself this approach is the one I've settled on.

Have fun, before your done you'll wish you had a smaller boat.

Rich

Edit: Soap mixable with saltwater means one that will foam. Joy and the one I use, Dawn are tradenames for dishsoap that will react with, e.g., foam, with saltwater.

Edit of edit: If after you have stripped off the old varnish it may be necessary to bleach the wood. That's a whole new episode. Ideally when you start to varnish the wood will look pretty darn close to new.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by cabo_sailor

Personally I am not a fan of epiphane, I prefer Z-spar Flagship, but others like it so I'll leave that be.

Heresy!

(But we're not supposed to discuss religion on this forum, right?)

[McSalty]

OK, update:
After some more sanding to get rid of the kinks and cuts caused while scraping the old varnish off ... and after treating the varnish that I did not get ridd of with some varnish remover - I now am down to the bare wood.
Still has a lot of discoloration - and, following and advice I got here, I will not attempt to make it look too new.

Pblais wrote: "It's earned some battle scars so go with it." - and I aggree.

But, I want to get at least a little bit more of an even colored look, so here is a picture of it (still wet) after last sand and varnish remover. Today is sunny so I'll be working on the boat. Tomorrow we are back to rain so I will continue with the starbright teak cleaner at home and after being done with the two components I will leave the bare wheel out in the rain for it to wash off any residue in a "natural way".

Once that is done I will post another picture here.....

[SaucySailoress]

It's looking really good, so far!!! Nice job.

[cabo_sailor]

McSalty,

Personally I would not leave the wheel out in the rain. You just went to all this trouble to bleach it and if you leave it out, it will turn gray again. A good flushing with a hose after bleaching, let it dry, and then get to the finish work. A light sanding with 220 grit followed by one or two sealant coats, and then straight varnish with perhaps a bit of penetrol. Make them thin coats to avoid runs and orange peel.. I've found that once the wood is ready, a sealant coat, at the very least will make for a better job. My wheel is similar and the brightwork job is at least 5 years old. It's covered and still looks great.

Sigh... I know what's going to happen here. I went through it too. You will try various suggestions here and then judge for yourself which ones work the way you wish. I know how hard and time consuming it is to strip a wheel, the only thing worse in my opinion are handrails. I can only suggest that the worst way, in terms of time and effort, usually yield the best results. What the hey! Pretty soon you will have your own experience to guide you. Don't worry if the first few coats look less than what you might like. It takes at least 5 coats of good varnish, including the sealing coats, to look good. The next 4-5 coats will not only protect it but make it look gorgeous. Then, when it starts to look a bit dull, a real quick buff job with 220, a wipedown with mineral spirits and two more coats of varnish will have everyone saying WOW. Mine is going on three years in the Florida sun and I feel no need to re-strip the wood. I still get many compliments.

Regards,
Rich

[McSalty]

You are right with the many different advice, but I think with some common sense it to be possible to differ between good, bad and great advice.

i.e. I think you are absolutely right with the warning to NOT leave the wheel out in the rain, but proceed directly to bleaching after the cleaning. Once that is done the rinsing and back under the roof for the wood to dry outside sun & rain and then
1 x 50% thinned coat
1 x 20% thinned coat
.....followed by at least 8 coats with a 240grit light sanding inbetween every other coat. (or do I need to do that between each coat?) - and: do the results get better if I let more time pass between coats than the 24hours recommended on the tin?

(and: @ Saucy Sailoress: Thanks for the encouraging words! Such always help! :-) )

[cabo_sailor]

Your application process sounds fine. As to sanding between coats that sort of depends. Epiphane claims you don't need to, Z-Spar Flagship, which I use, does recommend sanding between coats. Personally, I think one gets somewhat better results by sanding between each coat followed by a wipe down with mineral spirits. I also add a bit of Penetrol to each batch of varnish. Penetrol will help flatten the varnish eliminating brush marks. Not a lot mind, for the amount of varnish you will be using, maybe a quarter oz per batch. You can use a good quality bristle brush but I find the disposable foam brushed by Jen work very well. Not the foam brushes from Home Depot or Lowes, only the Jen Polybrush hold up well. They are available from Jamestown Distributor or Ace Hardware. They have a beveled tip and only dip the brush into the varnish partway down the bevel or you'll saturate the brush and get runs. They are cheap enough that I usually order them be the case from Jamestown.

As to time between coats, again in depends. I believe Epiphane lets you recoat every 4 hrs. Z-Spar recommends every 24 hours. I have seen it recommended for the last two coats that one wait 48 hours. I'm not sure how much difference that makes. It's recommended to give the varnish more time to outgas and cure. The varnish won't reach its max cure for several months, not that it matters for a ship's wheel but it might for a cabin sole.

One other thing, change out the masking tape halfway through the process and use fresh tape, otherwise you'll be a picking and a cussing trying to get it all off.

Don't be surprised if the first coats don't look too good. You will have a better vision of the finished product after coat 5. The remaining coats will make it better but they are mostly there for UV protection. After all the work you've done, you are not going to be in a hurry to repeat it. My wheel is kept covered but the finish job has lasted 10 years. When I get around to it I might give it a sand and a couple of refresher coats.

Please post a picture when you're finished. I'm sure it will be gorgeous.

Rich

[McSalty]

Will do! (post pictures once it's "done")
....for now the current situation after giving it a multiple good scrub (4-5x) with starbright Part 1 cleaner followed by quite a few (5 or 6) applications of Part 2.

Of course it still being wet, it's hard to tell but outside I dont see much difference between the "before & after" .... but when looking at the pictures I posted last, the change IS noticable, no?

I was thinking of trying this "Le Tonqu..." stuff, but am not sure if I wont stick to the stuff I know how it behaves (and which you can buy in all the shops) Epifanes. Hmmm....

Maybe I'll be trying the Le Tonqu stuff on the deckhouse, which is supposed to be oak, but looks like teak (at least in its current weathered condition) and just the size of it makes me shiver when thinking of having to sand all of it beween coats. (Darn! But I really wanted the "bigger boat")
:-)
Will keep you posted (literally!)

[cabo_sailor]

McSalty,

You are on the first steps of a long voyage of discovery. There are a great many products out there. You will try many and be really ticked off but eventually you will find one that works for you. I've tried at least a half dozen products and techniques until I found the one the seems to work best for me. You might or might not like doing the same. It's all a personal choice. Some folk swear by Cetol, after trying it I swear at Cetol. Different strokes for different folks. You've worked hard and are trying to do the best job you can, no one can ask for more. I really hope it works out for you. If not, well then back to the drawing board.

Edit: You might want to do a bit of research regarding the use of tung oil (boiled linseed oil). Its great for rifle stocks, with a fair amount of effort it is wonderful for interior wood, but I think you will find that if it is applied to exterior brightwork you will be replenishing it once every month or two. There is no UV protection.

Please keep us informed on your progress and good luck.

Rich

[Pblais]

I'm in the final stages of refinishing my Edson wheel. I don't have any before pictures but it was 20 years old and had a failed finish but no bare wood. It's the next size smaller than the one above. Still has the wood ring outside but is in the 36 inch size.

Some intersting stuff though. The wheel was galled onto the shaft. Looks like it was factory installed like that. It was seriously on the shaft and dynamite would not have helped. being aluminum a traditional prop puller really would have trashed the back side pretty bad so we drilled a hole on either side and tapped them. This allowed a plate with a screw drive to be solid to the wheel. After about 1 minute of an 18 volt Snap On impact wrench it started to budge about 1/32 of an inch. It took a LONG time to get it off the shaft. we then proceeded to ream out the wheel and dress up the shaft so the wheel might be installed properly when finished.

we unscrewed the stainless ring held on by 22 screws. The ring was broke in two place so we welded it up and got it polished up to a high gloss setting it aside. I had better information that it is OK to take the hub apart to separate the wood from the hub. That might have been a good idea but the two parts were hopelessly seized together. The feat was that brute force might just crack the aluminum hub so we decided to not do that. It was putted very deep but we went at it with sand paper and eventually got it looking clean and with some 600 grt paper was looking more like aluminum should look. There were some dents in the face where the wheel had been installed with severe force so batle scars will remain. We did get all the bolts out so that would not be in the way.

The wood was in good shape but the whole finish needed to come off. I used a "safe" stripper from the hardware store. It's easier to work with since you can slop it on your skin and not lose any. It is not as fast as the nasty stuff but it seems more gentle to the wood. It took about a day to apply costs and wait 1/2 hour then use a flexible putty knife to gently scrape away what I could then repeat the process numerous time on one side and then the next.

Once that was done some fine tools and scapers were used to clean out the little bits left inside the turnings and all the faces of the square parts. 8 Spindles with multriple cuts and 96 flat surfaces plaus all the rounded and tapered makes about 5oo surfaces to clean up plus the edges. I begand to sand out the dirt and gunk that didn't strip and that took about a day and a half to clean up and get back a redish tint to the wood. I did use some 320 grit p[aper to clean out the grooves and turned edges without taking out a lot of wood. It made the wheel look quite clean.

For the finsih I did 3 coats of Cetol Teak colored finish and 3 coats of gloss. It's more brown and less orange than the traditional Cetol and looks nice on the lighter teak you see on most boats. The color looks close to the factory color though the gloss is a lot higher. The hub will be powder coated black. I'll post a final picture after it's done. It's a huge job to refisnish one of these wheels but they do look nice.

The last part is to do a nice turks head knot for the center point on the wheel. The old finish just had some chord wrapped so was not as traditional.

Priot to this I thought adding the leather cover to a 28 inch destroyer wheel was a lot of hassle (it was) but this was a whole lot more time. The wheel poses a major PITA as far as application of varnish. You need to spin the wheel to do it and you need a system so you do it in order else lose track after you get the first coat on. I worked inside to outside in about 4 rotations adding an extra two for the back side. I just strung up a rope from one side of the garage to the other and suspended the wheel. It makes it easy to work one side or the other as well as spin it.

You need a canvas wheel cover if you go to this much work. Leaving it out in the open just assures you can be back at it in 6 years. I'll post a picture soon.

[zeehag]

i put no bleaach on my teak--is npt a blonde wood and needs no bleach to look great-- my wheel is oaken--is plain ..no finish. i love how yours looks but i like a less shiny6 look in my boat--i only use oil after my seawater cleaning. i only spennd 6 hours PER YEAR on my brightwork, and it looks great--natural color with oil on it so the fresh water beads up nicely in rain.....

[McSalty]

OK, here I am, back at last!

Originally Posted by cabo_sailor

.........You are on the first steps of a long voyage of discovery............

Oh! How true! How true! .... Now it's like some 5,000+ hours later and we are "done" (as much "done" as any boat usually ever gets, that is! *smile*)

Originally Posted by cabo_sailor

.........Please keep us informed on your progress and good luck.

& I gladly will, since I have to admit that I am a bit proud of what we did accomplish - especially the endless hours of work in the bilges, the electric panel and the likes - stuff you don't see on "done"-pics.

But I'll try to post a few "before-after" pics here, even so I am surprised that with a total of some 2,000 pictures taken since we started, none really seem to show the true extend of it.... anyways: (since I started this thread with the wheel)