Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-04-2011, 07:33   #1
Registered User
 
Shallow Runner's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Boat: The one in my dreams is all I have for now.
Posts: 18
Restoration

Just wanted to get some different viewpoints on this. I am looking to purchase a 30' older model boat and restore it over a year or so. No major repairs just cosmetic stuff like gutting the cabin and new paint/gel coat, etc; so something already seaworthy. I am finding boats like this between $1-5K some (most) with good lines, mast, sails, etc but just need some TLC. This would be my first boat so I just wanted to make it to my specs. I was talking to a guy the other day and he seemed really adamant that if I were to get one for that cheap I would end up putting another 15K into it and would be better off just spending the 20K and get one that is ready to go. Now I am a full time graduate student in South Florida so I do not have the disposable income to do that right now and I really like the idea or restoring a boat; I have done this with cars and get a great satisfaction out of it. However I also do not have 15K to put into restoration. I was just wondering if anyone had any insight into this? In your opinion would it cost that much, was he correct? The boats I have looked at were said to be seaworthy as is. Thanks.
__________________

__________________
Fair winds and Following Seas.
Shallow Runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 07:45   #2
Registered User
 
Mark1977's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Halifax, N.S Canada
Boat: Tanzer 26, Walk22
Posts: 930
Re: Restoration

Go for it! Buy what you can afford, many people on here will tell you not to , but if you can get something you can use a bit, and get experience fixing stuff, then why not. Later on when you have more cash you can upgrade. And think of all the experience you will have.
__________________

__________________
Mark1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 07:59   #3
Registered User
 
Unicorn Dreams's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Clear Lake Marine Services - Seabrook, Texas
Boat: Gulfstar, Mark II Ketch, 43'
Posts: 2,359
Re: Restoration

Just remember it will probably cost twice as much and take twice as lonf. But go for if you want to do it.
Welcome Aboard and enjoy CF.
__________________
Formerly Santana
The winds blow true,The skies stay blue,
Everyday is a good day for SAILING!!!!
Unicorn Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 08:00   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,387
Re: Restoration

In general terms your friends advice is generally true. Of course that also means that that advice is not always true. If you buy the right boat, have the skills to do the work and shop carefully for the parts and supplies you should be able to do it for a lot less than $15k.

BUT, don't forget you will need a place to keep the boat while you're doing all this work. Your profile says Ft Lauderdale which is one of the most expensive places in FL to keep a boat. You could easily spend a few hundred per month in dock or yard storage costs. Suggest you check out options for this before investing.

Also, make sure you check some of the less obvious structural things that could cost you a lot of time or money.

The decks on most boats are built in as a sandwich of fiberglass on both sides with usually plywood in between. Older boats can have water leaks through all the screw holes that hold hardware to the decks which can cause rot and delamination in the plywood core which can be difficult and/or expensive to repair.

Check out the fuel and water tanks. Often they are built into the boat and impossible to remove or repair without disassembling or destroying the cabin.

Another possible hidden problem are where the cabin bulkheads meet the sides of the hull. Check to make sure they are firmly attached with strips of fiberglass and this is not coming off.

Then the usual stuff, rig, sails, engine, etc. All these can cost thousands to repair or replace.

If you find a boat feel free to ask about it on the forum.

Skip
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 08:41   #5
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Restoration

I have some small boat restoration experience. I will try to share here some of what I found doing my own projects.

To start with, have a look at the price of a typical new, boatyard built boat of similar size / design.

Say it is 100 'units'.

In the asking price, there are things like planned profit, taxes and labour costs, etc. which one may be able to go around, if restoring one's own project. Depending on where the boat was build -

- we are now down to say 50 units.

However, it the price of a new boat, there will also be some price benefits that a sole restorer will find next to impossible to get - imagine buying resin, in bulk, for building of 10 thousands identical hulls, imagine buying the gelcoat, glass mat, masts and rigging, sails, engines, ropes ... OK, OK - so - you will hardly ever get things at the prices a big boatyard will. So, we are now back at -

say 70 units.

Now is time to decide how much of a price of a new boat can be discounted to arrive at your estimated restoration cost. From my experience, a lot. And some amt has to be added on top of this figure to correct for materials and equipment prices as discussed above.

I think, at least 30%.

The other huge factor is your skills and your labour cost. If you are a retired and a very competent hands-on boat builder / boatyard worker, you will have the time, the skills and the persistence and the friendships to take up almost any job and do it to the standards you have developed and achieved over years of practice, the further you are from this ideal, the more time you will need for the project and the further the result will be from what you see in a new boatyard built boats.

Last but not least, the restoration project will has to take place somewhere - trade in the shed / boatyard / marina costs to get the full picture.


Now back to my personal experience, restoring a classic beauty is WAY more expensive than building a new one - skilled labour costs are huge in the places where such a restoration takes place, material costs are high and boatyard space is expensive. This, I think will cool you down a bit.

However, the other side of a story is pretty bright: a good design / condition hull with spars and working engine present can be gotten to seaworthy condition at very reasonable cost NO FRILLS. Young people from my part of the world will often pick up a small GRP boat, bring her up to shape, sail round the N Atlantic and sell it off (often with a gain) one year later.

So, depending on your own skills, location, the subject and the target, you can have a good boat for much less than the one that leaves the boatyard.

For the first project, I would pick up the cheapest quality hull, preferably with all spars and an inboard, and go for it. Do not go for a derelict, go for a boat you think you can restore.

If it is not what you are cut for, all you may lose is some restorer's pride and a couple thousand. If it works, you learn the cost tricks, you develop your skills and you sell the project off. Then you use the money you made towards THE project. Or else you use the money towards a brand new and shiny boat fresh from an the boatyard.

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 08:58   #6
Registered User
 
Allan S's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lake Ontario, Canada
Boat: Seafarer 38 cutter rigged
Posts: 263
Images: 5
Send a message via MSN to Allan S
Re: Restoration

Bought our 1978 Coronado 25 for $2500, including the cradle. I had no experience with fiberglass repairs and I am a hack with wood. The learning curve is steep but I did not put no more than $2500 into her, tops. Been sailing for three years on her. Hell, I paid way more in slip and storage fees than I outlayed for the boat, cradle and repairs.....Allan

Go for it.......
__________________
Our Coronado 25, Not named yet!
http://coronado25.blogspot.com/
http://sheppard1961.blogspot.ca/
Allan S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 09:36   #7
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Restoration

bought a larger boat for 10k, put into her 5k and am off and running..LOL.. do not listen to those saying will take 5 yrs and 150k to restore yours--or whatever the numbers are-- it doesnt necessarily cost that much--depends on your ability to find stuff and fabricate.... goood luck-- you will know your boat when you are done...
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 09:40   #8
Registered User
 
Beersmith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Boat: 1975 Downeaster 38' Cutter
Posts: 341
Re: Restoration

I had the same idea, bought an old boat to restore. 1 year later I am less than half way done with it, and I put a lot of hours each week in it. I am loving the project, however, and am learning so much about my boat and the skills needed to repair and maintain it. I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.

However, a boat >$5k in start up costs will have SIGNIFICANTLY more problems than cosmetic and minor repairs. You will end up spending 2-3x more than you paid for it in the restoration, and each step of the way will lead to more issues than you expected.

It is all about your attitude for the project. I knew nothing about boat repair and maintenance, and wanted this project as sort of a "school" to learn it all. Hell, I lacked most basic mechanical skills going into this. Now I can do so much I've never dreamed of, I even do my own car work now.

Check out my blog in my signature to get an idea of where I started when looking for a boat, to where I am now.
__________________
One More Wave: my sailing and boat rebuild blog (formerly: The Quest for Wind and Waves)
Beersmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 09:55   #9
Registered User
 
JonathanSail's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Boat: Pearson, 28-1
Posts: 153
Re: Restoration

This is very doable and can be fun and rewarding. If you start with the right boat it can be a cost effective option too. The current market for small, fixer-upper sailboats is soft and I'm sure that looking around will turn up lots of cheap, good boats if on-site, cash is offered. If you have trouble finding one let me know,, there are plenty up here in NC from what I've seen.

If you want to minimize the risk to your time and money you have to do a lot of your learning before you get the boat. You need to learn to assess issues, and to estimate the costs of the restoration and all of the systems/time that will be involved. Unless you are different than everyone that I know doing a refit you will underestimate time and $$ by a factor of 2 to 3 times, or more. Once you learn these things (hard to do without hands-on experience with boat repair work) you then need to get comfortable with looking at boats and walking away. You'll have to tap on decks and hulls with screwdriver handles, push your heal into decks, tweak stanchions, inspect rigging, compression test engines, inspect electrical systems, etc. etc. If all of this goes well you may find a boat that might be fairly cheap and easy to restore, maybe I don't advise considering even an easy restoration unless you are up for a more challenging one though.

I'm about 9 months of daily work of into the restoration of a Pearson 28. This is my second grp sailboat restoration and I've done all of the work myself with the exception of having help when I did a large fiberglass layup (one mixes, one places/wets/rolls) and help with advice on some structural repairs. Costs are currently well over 10k for materials, some tools, and yard fees. If I keep at it may be able to have her in the water in 4 more months of work though its' looking like it may take a bit more. I got the boat for free, and think that I will enjoy it for my purposes when it is complete ('75 Pearson 28-1). It sailed/motored into the yard and seemed solid and tight though very poor cosmetically. I then proceeded to find pretty major structural problems, and to learn that things take on average 2 to 3 times and sometimes 10 times longer to repair than expected but have found that I'm enjoying the project tremendously. I know that the knowledge I'm gaining (I read sailing books every night, talk to cruisers that pass through the yard, etc.) will be invaluable when I get on the water and in my future years as a sailor (I'm in my early 30's and hope to cruise a good bit in the upcoming years). Early on in the project I realized that the boat was not worth repairing purely in financial terms but I decided to try to repair her, and to try to do it right (at least in terms of strength) for the non-financial reasons.

In the end I'll end up with over a year of daily work in the boat, and probably around 3 times more money in her than she is worth and until then I'm enjoying every day of the project, and glad to finally be making the transition to a knowledgeable sailor.

I occasionally post updates on what I've done (mostly to remind my future self what was involved when I am considering the next boat) here: Poolio's sailing and travel blog.

Keep us posted if you proceed,

Jonathan
__________________
JonathanSail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 10:09   #10
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Restoration

i bought my formosa for 10k and was advised i would have to put into her 150k and 5 yrs--LOL-- was balderdASH.. THERE ARE BOATS OUT THERE IN THIS MARKET IN REALLY DECeNT SHAPE FOR 5K-10K.. JUST KEEP LOOKING. THERE ARE ERICSONS AND OTHeR GOOD NAMES FOR 5-8K...LOL... this market is not qas it was 5 yrs ago-- one doesnt need to go to qa yacht broker to find a good deal-- quite the opposite is true-- no good deal is thru a broker. lol they have commission to consider. find the boat you want by cruising the docks at marinas and looking in newspapers and craigs list. avoid yacht brokers like plague.
have fun and goood luck!!! i found my formosa right next door to my ericson--is easy to find a good deal if you have eyes open and love looking at boats....

please forgive typos--i cannot see screen in sunlight and wifi here is waaayyyy slow-- still in enseanda with my formosa, awaiting an end to this flubug so i can safely sail.....
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 11:55   #11
Registered User
 
Beersmith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Boat: 1975 Downeaster 38' Cutter
Posts: 341
Re: Restoration

I should make an amendment to my post: I am gearing my boat to do serious blue water cruising. Of course it will take me a lot more money and time to get it in shape for that. It was good to sail around Florida and continue to be a coastal cruiser/pleasure craft as I bought it. However, I wanted to completely restore its beauty and outfit it to cross oceans. THAT is what costs the money and time.
__________________
One More Wave: my sailing and boat rebuild blog (formerly: The Quest for Wind and Waves)
Beersmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 15:29   #12
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Restoration

my formosa is sailing pacific ocean this spring--actually , i am cruising now. LOL..it doesnt take all your money to restore for blue water. UNLESS your boat was not intended for that purpose in first place. as i stated already, i bought formosa 41 for 10k. she had been saile dfrom san francisco to h=sd 5-6 yrs ago9 , used as a liveaboard by previous o2wner, and abandoned by him. i bought her, replaced engine-- cost me 2500.lol. and redid deck backing plate so is a 3 1/2 in solid deck and made sur all is well-- lol i only have $15000 into her. she will resale for more than 60k IFF i choose to sell her-- which i will not. i have a lovely blue water cruiser, which i am using as such.
__________________

zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
restoration

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Restoration: Wheel McSalty Construction, Maintenance & Refit 31 02-08-2011 15:02
Irwin 25 Restoration Cestmoi Monohull Sailboats 1 29-09-2010 13:30
Car Restoration vs Sailboat Restoration titan1969 Monohull Sailboats 34 24-10-2009 07:09
Restoration llm119 Powered Boats 3 19-08-2009 10:16
Restoration Costs? wizard1_us Multihull Sailboats 4 13-08-2009 23:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.