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Old 14-07-2012, 06:30   #1
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Replace standing rigging or not

Coming to the end of a long overhaul of my 1969 40' Salar motor sailer (new Yanmar, hull painted, complete electronics package). Mast is on ground in my backyard while boat is in water at my dock as I complete interior work and use boat locally to build hours on Yanmar.

Plan was to replace standing rigging on general principles. Reality is I'm 68 and doubt I will ever cruise "away" from my dock. I've known this boat since 1998 and it's been dock bound since then. Other than my brief local sailing in mild conditions, sails have never been raised in strong winds. Maintenance records back to 1969, prior to my knowledge of boat, are unknown, except that it seemed to have been well cared for.

With the mast on the ground I'll do a thorough exam of the rigging. I'm a mechanical engineer by training and understand wire rope failures and stress cracks. If I find frayed wire, stress cracking, I'll replace it. If I think wire is ok, I'll leave it. I'm confident I can make the standing rigging "safe" for the sailing I plan on doing for next 4-5 years.

Question: Will the resale value of the boat 3-4 yrs from now be enhanced by the owner inspected/replaced as needed process I plan on or will the value be lessened anyway (est $5k) because the standing ringging wasn't replaced by a professional on the 10-15yr recommended schedules.

While I'll struggle to get the $5k together now for a professional rigging replacement, the reality is sale of the boat is just over the horizon. I recognize to not do it may be "penny wise, pound foolish".

Thoughts?

Chris
s/v Spartina
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Old 14-07-2012, 06:57   #2
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

I can't say definitively if you will recoup the costs but when we were purchasing our boat, no one knew when the rigging had been replaced. We adjusted our offer accordingly to allow for a rerig because lets face it, standing rigging is pretty darned important. Much more so than the color of the interior upholstery.
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Old 14-07-2012, 07:19   #3
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

when we recently bought our 26 year old boat we had a rigging contractor come out and test the standing rigging. It wasn't a huge amount of money, (less than $200 total) and we ended up with a signed survey report on it. The rigging rated to 3500 lbs was all tested to 7,000 lbs. and we have a total of 9 shrouds and stays.

I'm thinking that for your resale question, a recent survey stating that the rigging was professinally stress tested and passed would be a pretty good doc to have in the package. Besides, if he found one or two places that needed fixing it would still be a whole lot less than just replacing all of it.

As a recent buyer, I know that if I had seen a document that the rigging had been tested in the past few years I would have been totally okay with that.
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Old 14-07-2012, 08:29   #4
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Chris

Both comments are valid as far as buying a boat without a good mantenance log.

You are an engineer and I am sure, fully aware of the problems with stainless cable rigging. Rust can be hidden in turn buckles or inside the wire. It my look good from the outside, but be a nightmare ready to happen inside. The stress test will help you with your decision, but may not be conclusive.

I have been on one boat when a shroud broke. I immediately tacked over, which saved the rig. Another friend wasn't so lucky,when his backstay parted, forcing the mast forward and thankfully away from the crewmen..., but his boat lost its mast, boom and sails, when they could not be dragged back on board due to weather conditions and they had to cut away the remaining stays to gain control of the vessel.

Resale in 4 years shouldn't be the question...

The real question is can you afford to replace the entire rig if one of the stays fails? Or more importantly, live with the aftermath of a catostrophic rig failure that injuries or kills a crewman or passenger?
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Old 14-07-2012, 08:55   #5
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Considering how relatively inexpensive rigging is compared with the other work you've done, why not complete the refit properly? It will be a much harder sell when you do elect to sell if a buyer understands that he/she will need to replace the rig and it will likely come out of the sale price anyway as a condition of the sale. If so, you might as well get the benefit/security of the new rig for the remainder of your ownership. In evaluating such decisions I try to keep in mind that while I own the boat, I really only have custody/responsibility for it for awhile before someone else will become her custodian/owner. I try to think of how I would feel/think as a prospective buyer rather than seller.

FWIW...
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Old 14-07-2012, 10:06   #6
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Canibul: I was not aware of the stress test that you had performed on your boat. How is it performed? I know about "tuning" the rigging, balancing the load in stays, but a real 7000# load test? Does it load up the chain plates?

s/vHyLyte: Your comments are right on. I feel about this boat as you do about yours, I owe her a chance to get to a new owner with better prospects than becoming non sailing liveaboard or a planter. The reality is though the Spartina will be 45 yrs old soon. In her prime, she's been trans-atlantic several times, spent time in the PNW. Now, because of her age, can anybody really think that she is still an ocean going cruiser, able to handle whatever could get tossed at her? I think that my refit is really targeted to near shore cruising.

I've wrestled with the standing rigging overhaul, and don't know how I can truly make it "good as new", considering I'm limited to just the wires/attachments. The chainplates are not accessible to any degree. The stress test Canibul talks about is a step in the right direction.
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Old 14-07-2012, 10:32   #7
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Why not replace the standing rigging yourself? I replaced all my rigging with 316 1x19 wire from riggingonly.com, used sta-loc mechanical fittings at both ends, total cost was about $1700 in parts and that included new turnbuckles for my Alberg 30. I am sure it will be more for your larger boat but may be worth looking into. I was unsure of the age of my rigging as well before replacing it and it was always on my mind when the wind kicked up. So for piece of mind I replaced it. Good Luck!
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Old 14-07-2012, 14:22   #8
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Chris,

I sell a lot of titanium chainplates, so there may be a conflict of interest for me...

Frankly I have seen 10 year old stainless fail, and I know boats that are 30 years old on their original rigging, and still going strong. The only way though I would feel confident in a 40 year old rig is if the chainplates are removed, dye tested or x-rayed and if then they pass reinstalled.

Chainplates particularly are typically made with a massive corrosion allowance, in part because they tend to be ignored. So even a load test to me would be of minimal value. A crack will propigate, and even if it today has enough metal left to withstand a static pull, it may not handle off center shock loads in the future.

Assuming you have experience with dye testing, the kits are not that expensive, and testing all the rigging fittings while the mast is down is really an afternoon project. So long as all the fittings pass, then nothing more need be done. If they fail, then, well that's your answer.

A lot of people of course choose to replace the chainplates once they are out, just because replacement is often not that much more relative to the difficulty of tearing apart the boat. Personally (and professionally) I would replace them with titanium, since it just doesn't suffer from corrosion in the marine environment. And it really is a once a lifetime thing. But if you are just trying to get her safe for 4-5 years it may not be worth the 20% or so price premium.
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Old 14-07-2012, 14:42   #9
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Chris,

I sell a lot of titanium chainplates, so there may be a conflict of interest for me...

.
***not sure if this is confict of interest or not but i do not sell lightning or stainless***


I would say it is if you are not a paid advertiser, I have seen many posts where you discuss the failure of stainless chainplates and how titanium is superior, where is your actual data to support this. We all have heard to chainplate failure, but did it fail from is a design flaw orginally? was the boat not maintained? were the chainplates/rigging maintained? Also what is the actual percentage of failure compared to the number of stainless chainplates in use? I will bet it is very small and that he has a better chance of being hit by lightning than a new properly designed stainless chainplate failing. For what you claim to be only a 20% price difference, I suspect more espcially to get it machined and welded, i could have made 5 sets of chainplates for my boat. My original and smaller chainplates lasted 40yrs. i am hoping to get 40 from my larger and maintained new stainless ones, if I dont i can build another new set and still have saved money for beer
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Old 14-07-2012, 15:02   #10
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

curious as to whether there is any galvanic reaction between titanium and stainless.

Hey, what's the point of even doing a rigging certification at all if the attitude is "Yeah, it passed the test with flying colors but I dont trust it so I'll just replace it anyhow."?

Rigging may be 10 years old, but how many days out of that ten years was it actually sailing under load?
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Old 14-07-2012, 15:53   #11
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

FWIW,

I have a boat just shy of 40 years old. During the 30+ years I have had her - uh, she has had me - I've replaced the rigging twice, each time because of insurance requirements. Both times, the wire seemed ok, but we discovered corroded bolts/hardware that demanded replacement, as well as electrical wiring,etc. Because I used Stalok terminals, I was able to disassemble and inspect the connections; absolutely no visible damage or corrosion. After conversations with the Stalok folks, reusing the connectors (the connectors were replaced each time) after so many years between changes seemed iffy, and if those stainless pieces warranted second thoughts, the decision to change the wire was easy. Nevertheless, insurance requirements demanded it.

Roger
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Old 14-07-2012, 16:15   #12
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

How do you maintain standing rigging?as in check?
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Old 14-07-2012, 16:22   #13
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

I always thought silicon bronze was the preferred material for chain plates. Another comment is that new is not always best considering that the source of the wire may be suspect.
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Old 14-07-2012, 16:34   #14
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
***not sure if this is confict of interest or not but i do not sell lightning or stainless***


I would say it is if you are not a paid advertiser, I have seen many posts where you discuss the failure of stainless chainplates and how titanium is superior, where is your actual data to support this. We all have heard to chainplate failure, but did it fail from is a design flaw orginally? was the boat not maintained? were the chainplates/rigging maintained? Also what is the actual percentage of failure compared to the number of stainless chainplates in use? I will bet it is very small and that he has a better chance of being hit by lightning than a new properly designed stainless chainplate failing. For what you claim to be only a 20% price difference, I suspect more espcially to get it machined and welded, i could have made 5 sets of chainplates for my boat. My original and smaller chainplates lasted 40yrs. i am hoping to get 40 from my larger and maintained new stainless ones, if I dont i can build another new set and still have saved money for beer
Instead of derailing this thread I have added a write up in a new thread to discuss the comparative advantages of titanium and 316. Stainless vs Titanium Chainplates



Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
I always thought silicon bronze was the preferred material for chain plates. Another comment is that new is not always best considering that the source of the wire may be suspect.
I didn't consider siliconized bronze... If i get some time tonight I will add a comparison between titanium and it.
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Old 14-07-2012, 17:18   #15
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Re: Replace standing rigging or not

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Originally Posted by sartorst View Post
How do you maintain standing rigging?as in check?
From rigging manufacturers...

The entire rig should be taken off and inspected at 8 years old, and every year from then on. This include removing and inspecting the chainplates, all end fittings, the wire, wire to mast connections, turnbuckles, ect...
http://www.navtec.net/assets/img/dat...ng-Service.pdf

The best way to inspect stainless is to have the parts x-rayed looking for flaws and cracks.

Second to x-ray inspection is dye testing, where a two part dye is applied to the metal, then wiped off. Then a developer is applied that if it contacts the first chemical turns a vibrant color (some glow under a black light instead). The tricky part is knowing how to read the test to determine if it is a real crack, or just a scratch.

I know the process, but I wouldn't test my own readings.


In practice the testing can often be a significant percentage of the cost to replace, so many people don't bother.
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