Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-11-2014, 13:33   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 115
Repairing Tabbing

I am about to start fixing a small section of tabbing on our Tayana 37 between our nav station and our port salon settee. I see in Casey's This Old Boat (page 67) that he recommends one of two methods:

1. Grind out the old tabbing and start afresh with the tabbing as if laying up for the first time.

2. If the tabbing is separating from the wood, but not the hull, 5200 the old tabbing to the wood and put some staggered screws through both the old fiberglass tabbing and the wood.

In our case, the tabbing is only separating from the wood. The 5200 route seems a lot easier and less messy, not having to grind inside the cabin. But, before I go this route, I thought I would check with all of you; I always have concerns using 5200 for anything given the difficulty of removal.
__________________

__________________
Helbent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 16:24   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,005
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Would use lightly thickened epoxy injected into the void and multiple through bolts to resecure tabbing to the bulkhead. 5200 is an adhesive not a glue. Steady pressure and parts can shift. The fasteners would be taking most of forces. With epoxied repair clamped with through bolts, the fix would be stronger than original.
__________________

__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 16:36   #3
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Just be sure the Wood is sound, no wet or rot..
The epoxy idea with the bolts troughbolting the panel sounds better than 5200...
But if i am in your shoes i probably take grinding the old tabbing and FG the wole área in question, i dont know if the bulkhead is structural or not...
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 22:22   #4
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,649
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helbent View Post
...Grind out the old tabbing and start afresh with the tabbing as if laying up for the first time...
This is the only reliable repair. Use epoxy resin.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 12:13   #5
Registered User
 
Boatyarddog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, wa.
Boat: Mariner Ketch 32- 1979- hull 202
Posts: 632
Repairing Tabbing

Really think it through before you do a substandard repair, especially if its a bulkhead.
If its just liner tabbing ok, but it's messy for the most part but grinding it out, cleaning it very well with acetone and re glassing,
I don't use epoxy for a lot of things except laminating.
Mainly because of the extra prep required because of Amine blush.
Poly resin, or better yet vinyl ester resin is easier to use costs less, and no extra prep.
Try to time all your repairs to layup glass on wet or tacky glass, to avoid re grinding.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Boatyarddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 17:04   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 559
Re: Repairing Tabbing

If the glass is delaminating from the bulkhead, see if you can get it to peel off the hull also. It requires more effort, but would require less clean up after to glass in new tabbing. Some times you can get the tabbing to peel from the hull.
__________________
mike d. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 17:10   #7
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Repairing Tabbing

If you don't use epoxy it will be a substandard repair. Bad practice to try to bond new polyester to old polyester, especially if it's structural.
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 17:27   #8
Registered User
 
scotty c-m's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: catalina 400 MKII
Posts: 188
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Grind down and start as new. If the glass is solid onto the hull, you could get by with glassing over it, but you'd have to give it a good grind just to see if it indeed bonding. I wouldn't trust anything less that new tabbing on the bulkhead. Just my opinion. That Tanya is a big, beautiful boat and deserves a fix that will live up to the workmanship of the rest of the boat. Let us know how it works out.
__________________
scotty c-m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 17:45   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Repairing Tabbing

It sounds like the ply bulkhead was not wetted prior to tabbing. Or the Fiberglass has shrunk, dried away from the ply.
The little bulkhead between the nav and settee is not super critical like the main bulkhead near the mast. But even if it was...The 5200 or epoxy filler technique should be fine. I certainly wouldn't worry about the 5200 being hard to take apart in the future... no more so than grinding glass/epoxy off.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 19:10   #10
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
This is the only reliable repair. Use epoxy resin.




+1. But...



The quick and dirty fix can be, IF you have a tab failed on one side only (usually ply/bulkhead side), with a good bond on the other and a substantial tab layup:


Stick some grit to a stiff putty knife and stick it in the void in the failed joint. Use it to sand the tab and the substrate till all is clean. Vac well and inject/pour/rag plenty of acetone into the joint and allow to dry. Make a quick pattern of the failed tab on the bulkhead side (doorskin). Cut a piece of ply to fit the pattern (usually 1/2", might need more). Drill and screw the ply to the bulkhead with the failed tab clamped between the two. Dry fit and add screws till tight and flush. When happy, pull off your dry fit and apply a release to the ply or add a layer of film, whatever. Then inject epoxy of your choice by method of choice into the void in the failed tab. Be sure to really get it in there. I would recommend Six10 for the layman, as it requires no special applicator. Use a squeegee to work it in too. Then screw the ply "clamp" over the tab onto the bulkhead, being sure to NOT forget the release. Clean up the squeezeout, being sure that you got it from everywhere. Allow to cure and remove the clamp. Fill the screw holes. Sand fair and paint by method of choice. Voila! Quick fix. Works pretty good for quick and dirty, too, in the right situation.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2014, 14:19   #11
Registered User
 
Boatyarddog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, wa.
Boat: Mariner Ketch 32- 1979- hull 202
Posts: 632
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Have to disagree with smj.
Re glassing with poly or vinyl ester is fine, as the glass is the strength.
It's most important to grind the surfaces smooth as you can, no less than say 60 grit to get the physical bond.
Then clean with acetone, clean rags until it's clean when you wipe it.

Epoxies and poly are not compatible, so one or the other.

Epoxy is stronger, but very brittle so it's most important not to oversaturate the glass.

Also on those 90degree angles use a fillet to bridge the gap at the bottom of the panels, colloidal silica.
West systems 406? Thickened to peanut butter consistency, then like 4 layers of bi axial staggered out to 4" to 5".

The reason I don't use the epoxy here is cost and extra prep if you don't get it all done at once.
You'll get Amine Blush, with cured epoxy, not so with poly or vinyl ester resins.
This A Blush acts like wax and must be cleaned off prior to grinding for more layers, or the substance will contaminate the under layers possibly causing a repair that could release again.


Sent from my iPad SV Cloud Duster
__________________
Boatyarddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2014, 14:26   #12
Registered User
 
Boatyarddog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, wa.
Boat: Mariner Ketch 32- 1979- hull 202
Posts: 632
Repairing Tabbing

5200 to fix this is short lived and really not the right way.
I think the manufactures would have used it if it was a long lasting.
Just my opinion from having used it for repairs over the years.
This stuff will shrink, glass will not.
Expansion rates of differing substrates usually causes this problem of releasing the bond, or water.


Sent from my iPad SV Cloud Duster
__________________
Boatyarddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2014, 15:11   #13
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatyarddog View Post
Have to disagree with smj.
Re glassing with poly or vinyl ester is fine, as the glass is the strength.
It's most important to grind the surfaces smooth as you can, no less than say 60 grit to get the physical bond.
Then clean with acetone, clean rags until it's clean when you wipe it.

Epoxies and poly are not compatible, so one or the other.

Epoxy is stronger, but very brittle so it's most important not to oversaturate the glass.

Also on those 90degree angles use a fillet to bridge the gap at the bottom of the panels, colloidal silica.
West systems 406? Thickened to peanut butter consistency, then like 4 layers of bi axial staggered out to 4" to 5".

The reason I don't use the epoxy here is cost and extra prep if you don't get it all done at once.
You'll get Amine Blush, with cured epoxy, not so with poly or vinyl ester resins.
This A Blush acts like wax and must be cleaned off prior to grinding for more layers, or the substance will contaminate the under layers possibly causing a repair that could release again.


Sent from my iPad SV Cloud Duster

The strength is the glass but if the glass doesn't bond to the existing polyester hull or the plywood bulkhead there will be no strength at all. Epoxy as a secondary bond to polyester is far superior to polyester or vinylester resins. Therefore for the best end product use epoxy. Also epoxy is less brittle than polyester.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2014, 16:04   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Repairing Tabbing

If this is just furniture tabbing, then some here are going into overkill on solutions. I couldn't tell, but it didn't sound like a structural bulkhead or even anything structural at all.

smj and I have debated before our differing opinions on epoxy/poly (I freely use both for things). However, my experience with poly secondary bonding to poly is not the nightmare he describes. I think a lot of people spend unnecessary money and expose themselves to unnecessary toxicity because of this epoxy cult. Many, many, many, many, many boats have been structurally repaired with poly in the past when epoxy hadn't even arrived on the scene yet. Probably more boats than have been repaired with epoxy since.

And I can't tell you how many epoxy bonds I have peeled off poly builds before. If not done very carefully, any additional bonding capabilities of epoxy are lost. Poly is much more forgiving in this.

However, if bonding to wood that previously had a poly bond, I would use epoxy.

But only if it is structural. If it is just sticking some furniture together, then cheap and easy is just fine. As long as the wood itself is OK, clean and dry.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2014, 16:09   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Repairing Tabbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
The quick and dirty fix can be, IF you have a tab failed on one side only (usually ply/bulkhead side), with a good bond on the other and a substantial tab layup:
It would have to be a long, wide, thick tab with the good bond side in a difficult to access area before whacking the whole thing off with a grinder and retabbing became less easy than your alternate method.

I'm not arguing your method, just putting the parameters in perspective before people gravitate too soon to that method.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
bulkhead tabbing Dman Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 27-09-2012 13:39
Tabbing Bulkheads delmarrey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 20 18-03-2012 10:04
tabbing repair - mind the gap Patrick_DeepPlaya Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 08-08-2008 01:12
lose tabbing Pa La O La Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 30-06-2006 06:19



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.