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Old 02-08-2016, 07:25   #31
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Can't always get the picture thing to work right, sometimes they show up for a while and then they don't...at any rate these are them in their respective order.
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Old 02-08-2016, 07:55   #32
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Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Can't always get the picture thing to work right, sometimes they show up for a while and then they don't...at any rate these are them in their respective order.

Nice.

Also thanks for the earlier assessment of how there must have been a stanchion load--because I couldn't figure out how that edge of the platform was getting loaded. I thought the missing hardware was a cheek block for some reason ....and that the crack could have just been dry checking to extreme.

Regarding stop-drilling and applying a dowel : it does work on teak and other woods nicely. Sure it's not metal we are stoping a crack in but the drill and dowel still stops cracks from extending nonetheless.


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Old 02-08-2016, 15:17   #33
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
whatever you place into cracked dry teak will again force cracking once th e wood i s soaked with sea water.
first thing to do is make sure you have th e wood wet with salt water. then figger out how to make a metal wrap/brace for it-- bronze or stainless-- to keep strength.
as teak is an oily wood, fg does not bond well. nor does epoxy.
ask minaret what he would do. minaret is smart.
Very true. Epoxy does not bond well to teak. I don't understand when people try it. Too much oil in the wood.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:32   #34
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

No, epoxy doesn't do well on teak as a glue. Try Oak & Teak Epoxy Glue It does do a good job.
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Old 14-08-2016, 17:36   #35
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Wow, thanks for all the input! I am very appreciative, and very impressed with everyone's effort.


Here's follow-up:
Union 36

Yes teak.

Thickness: 1 1/2", Width: 4 7/8" (slightly less where modified for cross pieces),
Beam Length: >7ft., and there is a second 3ft+ length glued to the underside on the end of the beam arm, which corresponds with where it rests on the stern of the deck. Basically, the 3 1/2ft pieces on the ends are great big shims to clear the stern "cap rail" teak.

Yes, stanchion base.
I should have written: mounting location for a stern railing "stanchion" pad.

The stanchion mounting thru the beam is through bolted, but to Minaret's point, the holes where not fully clear, so there was some friction there. This location also felt some pressure from the less than precise alignment of the railing/stanchion and its mounting holes versus the location of the holes in the teak beam.

The wood is very dry, although I have since gotten it wet, but a soaking in salt water does seem like a good idea. Also, to Minaret's point, the cut of wood is not optimum. I'm realizing the dryness with the poor cut combined are enough to have split the wood.

The wood does not want to close from it's present split location. In spite the split, the wood is very solid. I would agree that it is more cosmetic, as long as it does not continue to run.
-Several clamps were first used to get some wooden pieces in place across the edge of both sides, then beveled shims added in order to clamp it square. Again, wood does not want to move.
-Clamping only wants to promote cracking on beam on other side.

Given this, my gut feel is that the most practical way to repair this beam is to take the structure apart, ie. separate the beam from the cross pieces, and clean it all up, do repairs/clamping to the beams individually, then put back together, assuming it's still practical to reuse.


The large crack pretty much terminates just outboard of the inboard aft mounting hole. But there is a small crack that wants to continue forward from the opposite side of the aft hole to the forward inboard mounting hole, albeit a surface crack at this point. The stanchion in this location wants to spring out, ie creates a side load to port, which is also consistent with the cracking. I don't think that was the start of it though. I think given what I'm seeing on the other side, it started with the end of the wood, it's dryness, and the cut of the wood.


Re-useable or not once beam solution is final, I'm guessing guidance would be to separate the stanchion from railing, mount/fit/measure for proper alignment, and then re-weld, so as to remove any loading.

Given what I am seeing on this piece with epoxy, and the previous mentioned concerns about expansion and contraction, not confident epoxy is the best adhesive choice. I looked up weldwood, and saw mixed reviews, and mentions that it is not a good gap filler.

The Oak and Teak Epoxy, by Smith's looks interesting. Any recent experience? Generally, I like Smith's. Are they well beyond the days of an occasional bad batch due sourcing of resins? How does it do in a joint where expansion and contraction will happen with temperature change? I ask because in every application I have seen on this boat with epoxy in a teak joint, the joint has had contraction in summer months and epoxy pulled away on one side. And a UV inhibited coating over top did not help, the joint still contracted enough to pop epoxy to wood joint on one side. A flexible caulk was a better choice for joints that didn't require bonding. And for those that require bonding, well I'm not sure yet.


The platform needs to go to the yard, so the folks who are to do the deck have a complete picture of what will need to bolt thru the deck and where. I was hoping to have the platform cleaned up and better protected before going to the yard, but since it means dismantling for repair or replacement, I think it needs to wait, as the yard wouldn't benefit from it being in pieces, nor do I want to delay, or make new pieces now only to sit in the yard.


For future steps:

Re-do stanchion alignment, or assure aligning holes if a new piece of wood.

Re-juvenate wood in salt water, not as easy as dunking in bay, span of beams almost 7ft, in addition to the length and is heavy.

Fill crack, and or bond in shim after cutting, and set screws across with plugs, or just fill, and screw, or remake. Assure clear holes for thru-bolting.

What's the likelihood of this coming apart without breaking (mortises and tenons and such)?

If not mortise and tenon, then what would be the better way to join these pieces of wood?

Prior local source of teak is gone. Teak Decking Systems seems to source quality teak, but across country. Any other sources of merit?


What adhesives bond wood, survive thermal expansion/contraction movement of wood/joint, and are UV resistant, and/or will take a coating over?

Everyone, thanks again.
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Old 14-08-2016, 18:08   #36
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

You should realize that had you asked about a crack in your bamboo fishing pole, it could have devolved into an argument about killing fish and global warming.
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Old 14-08-2016, 19:54   #37
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
You should realize that had you asked about a crack in your bamboo fishing pole, it could have devolved into an argument about killing fish and global warming.
Glad we didn't go there!
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Old 19-08-2016, 05:49   #38
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Don't know where you're at on this but if you've not gotten too far here's some more to chew on...

Addressing the question of gluing teak.

Lot's of pictures with numbers follow, the descriptions go with the numbers.


#1 & 2 - Shows opposite ends of a teak hatch slide cap, taken from 1980 Catalina 30 when I replaced all the exterior teak on the boat about 10 years ago. Yeah I'm a pack rat but teak is expensive.

#3 shows the forward end of the same piece after 3 passes with a hand power place and 1/2" cut off the end with a chop saw. It also shows why I save old teak and why teak is so popular with boat builders...

#4 shows 3 areas in the middle of the cap that look to me like the analog in teak of what we call around here, for temperate grown wood, being dowdy, where the first stages of delignification begin. The wood is still somewhat strong but there is a noticeable difference compared to the surrounding, unaffected wood. (Not really relevant, but thought it might be interesting)

#5 shows the materials for the test before being drilled and assembled.

#6 shows the assembly ready for gluing. If also shows why you always use some kind of lubricant (neversieze) when using stainless steel bolts.

#7 shows the gluing. I used Resin Research UV inhibited resin because that's what I have open. I used no kind of solvent wash at all, just to see what would happen. The wood has only been planed; the surface was probably a little too smooth for good gluing, but I wanted to load the deck against success a little bit. The way the epoxy beaded up on the what-looked-to-me to be dry, un-oily wood gave me pause, but hey, let's see what happens...

#8 shows me clamping the pieces probably a little too tightly, as we shall see.

After 24 hours,

#9 shows my trusty tractor lifting the assembly with 70 lbs suspended from it (the 67 lb weight plus the chain). So far so good.

#10 shows adding a 40 lb battery, so the total is 110 lbs.

#11 shows failure at 160 lbs, with the addition of a 50 lb battery. Joint held for about 2 seconds.

#12 shows the failed joint. About 3/4 of the joint shows that the wood failed before the bond or the glue did. The part outlined in yellow shows the area that did not, for the most part, delaminate the wood, most likely because of excessive clamping pressure. You can't really tell it in #8, but the clamp is a little off center because of the bolts holding the teak to the metal. I'm guessing that the uneven pressure left too thin a layer of epoxy where the pressure was greatest. We'll have a closer look at the joint in the next post.

So can any conclusions be reached? Beyond the obvious, that one can glue teak with epoxy without solvent washing, not really, for several reasons that I'll bring up in a following post. (you can only post 12 pictures per post and there're 8 more...
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Old 19-08-2016, 07:17   #39
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

To finish up:

#13 just shows a different view (with shadows), to better illustrate the success and failure of the joint.

#14 through 22 show a real world example using an alternative glue, in this case tan 5200. This is a teak swim platform on a skiboat that is redid about 8 years ago. Pictures 19 through 22 were taken day before yesterday. The boat has never had a cover, but lives on a hoist where the port side is exposed to the south all year. The starboard side is in shadow all year.

#14 shows the reason to repair.

#16 shows the method of repair. I used two pieces (rather that using my expensive 8/4 stock for a 'brother-in-law' job), glued with 5200 and mechanically fastened with stainless screws, predrilled and countersunk.
Both the new and old teak were rubbed down with acetone before gluing. You can see the 5200 squeezing out of the joints...

#17 shows the platform after the 5200 has set and the new pieces have been planed to match the old.

#18 shows the finished platform before installation.

#19 and 20 show the starboard side after 8 years exposure but little direct sun.

#20 and 21 show the port side, with 8 years of direct sun.

It appears, maybe not surprisingly, in this case anyway, that the sun has a more negative effect. Whether this is because of UV (I think more likely) than differential heating and cooling (I think less likely) is open to debate.

As for conclusions about your case...

I don't understand the logic of soaking the wood and then gluing it, regardless of what glue you use. The wood will dry to a set average moisture content, that is the point at which it should be glued. Gluing it after it has been soaked to swell the crack closed seems asking for trouble to me. Though it is true that polyurethane (like 5200) glues require moisture to cure...

My opinion about 'stopping the crack from running' stands, but if you try it, it wouldn't seem that it would hurt things too much if you keep the diameter as small as possible and align the hole so if follows the crack diagonally through the plank.

Given the rigidity of the crack, it seems likely that the best, most attractive repair (short of replacing the plank) will be to widen the crack (with a circular saw set at an angle maybe?), cut a teak shim to fit and glue it in.
Make the shim oversize at the top, bottom and end so you can trim it down flush to the existing surface, but make it just slightly less thick that the cut that it fits into to allow for the glue and potential expansion/contraction cycles. Given the thickness, substantial strength can be added by edge screwing, as diagrammed above, but the fastener diameter needs to be increased, at least to 1/4" possibly even 5/16", Of course the drill diameters need to be increased appropriately as well.

Regarding through-bolting of the stanchion pads. Too big a hole can be as bad as too small. if it's hard to push the bolt through by hand, you're just about right.

Hope all that's not too presumptive.
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Old 19-08-2016, 08:23   #40
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

"...What adhesives bond wood, survive thermal expansion/contraction movement of wood/joint, and are UV resistant, and/or will take a coating over?...."
3M 5200. Once when building out the interior of a sailboat, I needed a trim piece over the quarterberth entry edge. It was rough fiberglass and I needed something to bond and fill the gaps. I put an ornamental 3/4 thick teak board on there with 5200. The board was fresh teak and still pretty oily too. Long story short, I decided a week later to redo some of the surrounding finish work and had to remove that board. It would not come off. I ended up breaking and chiseling the 3/4 thick teak board to get it off.
5200 does not require moisture to cure. Some old type caulks do though.
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Old 19-08-2016, 08:52   #41
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

According to 3M it does require moisture to cure. I believe there is enough moisture in the average, normal atmosphere to do the job though.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...iU9s_heQUAz7fA


3M
Marine Adhesive/Sealant 5200 (Tan)
06501 21450
Technical Data
February, 2007


Product Description
3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant 5200 (Tan) is a one-part polyurethane that

chemically reacts with moisture to deliver strong, flexible bonds. It has excellent

adhesion to wood gel coat and fiberglass. It forms a watertight, weather-resistant

seal on joints and boat hardware, above and below the waterline. In addition, its

flexibility allows for dissipation of stress caused by shock, vibration, swelling or

shrinking.













Features

Tough/flexible polyurethane polymer.


Non-shrinking.


One-part moisture cure.


Long working time
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Old 19-08-2016, 09:49   #42
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Yeah. "reacts with" and "requires " may be different things. I've used it without added moisture in everything from summer heat to frozen cold dry winter. But of course, as noted, there's always some moisture in the air.
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Old 19-08-2016, 10:20   #43
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

'Requires' as in won't cure without. I absolutely, positively refuse to try and test it. (Now how would one go about that?...) Guess I'll just trust the scientists...
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Old 19-08-2016, 10:30   #44
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

All I know is it cures anywhere, anytime you use it. In fact, I've had to throw away full unopened tubes of it many times that have cured up hard. I hate that!
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Old 19-08-2016, 10:54   #45
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Re: Repair and Fill for Large Teak Crack

Yeah, at 13-17 at tube, that sucks. After opening it keeps way longer in a frost-free freezer, if you can get away with it. A bitch to use then though; you have to heat or let if warm up before you can pump it out...
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