Removing Old Engine Room Sound Insulation Adhesive...

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Roy M

Here's a twist: Consider this a wakeup call that things get old and need replacement. Pull the engine out of the compartment, place it in a large, open space and look at it critically. Perhaps do the deferred maintenance that will obviously (and eventually) come into focus. While the engine is out of the compartment, rip out the insulation, any way that works, and replace it, whatever the cost. Improve the lighting, ventilation, structural and electrical support for the engine while the compartment is open and available. Or don't. Just let trouble compile and develop, using more resources and effort than would otherwise be exerted.

Wake up. Do the right thing. Now.

Wake up? WTF?

Dude, take a pill. Drawing the conclusions that you have based on what I posted is a serious over reaction. Yes, the fact that I bought a boat with disintegrating insulation suggests a series of follow-on actions. Having the engine oil tested, inspecting every mechanical system in the compartment, replacing hoses, fittings, etc as well as clamps and so forth. I've done that, and proceeding with more. And no I'm not going to pull my engine and "place it in a large open space". If you had a clue about my boat you'd know that there are other ways to skin that cat.

For you to suggest that I "wake up" is insulting and frankly a bit histrionic, given what you know of my vessel and my history with it.

[HopCar]

If you use mechanical fasteners, I suggest you use the spike type fasteners. They are much easier than trying to drive screws through the foam.

I tried using screws with fender washers to hold it on but the screws tore up the foam.

The spikes were much easier and neater. I put a small blob of 5200 where I wanted the spike, pushed the base of the spike into the 5200, then ran a small (#6 or 8 X 3/8") pan head self tapping screw through the base to hold it in place while the 5200 dried.

I then pushed the foam down onto the spikes, pushed the washer on the spike, snipped off the spike and pushed the cap onto the spike stub.

Here is a link to detailed installation instructions.
http://www.soundown.com/Section%203%...structions.pdf

Step 3 describes in detail what I just said above.

[Roy M]

Sorry Suijin, I didn't intend to insult your intelligence. I have been working on boats for over thirty-five years, I've managed a major boatyard, and I've seen a lot of engine rooms. When you indicated that your engine room insulation was deteriorating, it brought about a series of conclusions that other, equally experienced folks would probably have made. It's kind of like an emergency room physician seeing distinctive and characteristic symptoms and making a preliminary diagnosis, which he (or she) would then follow up with lab procedures or other information gathering to confirm.

Insulation doesn't just deteriorate over time of its own accord. Something makes it lose its structural integrity. Generally, it's heat, assisted by an unhealthy dose of aerosol hydrocarbons, and lots of it, operating over a long period. This is commonly associated with an engine that doesn't get a whole lot of preventive maintenance and regular cleaning. And those things, in turn, lead to a whole bucket's worth of issues. I'm not saying that your particular engine is probably going to show the characteristic leaks and cracks in rubber hoses and other parts, the fouling inside the alternator from worn fan belts, the plugging of heat exchanger tubes or the exhaust elbow, the caked oil around gaskets, or deeper issues with valves and rings, but any of the more experienced forum members will probably agree that these things seem to follow each other around.

So, just like when a patient complains about increasing chest pain, fatigue, and a few other associated symptoms, a medical person may begin to put two and two together and check for related symptoms. It sometimes results in saving the life of the patient. Or it infuriates that patient who then goes off, smoking a cigarette and looking for a doctor who will tell him what he wants to hear. He will also, probably, be cursing the person who suggested he might have a bigger issue. I wish you good health and good luck.

[Cheechako]

all those cheap foams deteriorate readily. I'm assuming it's heat. Doesnt have to be in the engine room at all. The whole headliner in my 42 ft cat was "vinyl" backed with 1/8 foam. Same problem after only 6 years from new... foam turned to dust except where it was firmly mixed with the glue stuck to the fiberglass!
The engine room insulation in my little powerboat is crumbling just like the OP's. Seen this too many times to count. The good engine room insulation has more of a neoprene type foam along with multi layers of sound deadening material. The best was lead layered in the foam, but not done anymore.... due to the publics "lead phobia"

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Roy M

Sorry Suijin, I didn't intend to insult your intelligence. I have been working on boats for over thirty-five years, I've managed a major boatyard, and I've seen a lot of engine rooms. When you indicated that your engine room insulation was deteriorating, it brought about a series of conclusions that other, equally experienced folks would probably have made. It's kind of like an emergency room physician seeing distinctive and characteristic symptoms and making a preliminary diagnosis, which he (or she) would then follow up with lab procedures or other information gathering to confirm.

Insulation doesn't just deteriorate over time of its own accord. Something makes it lose its structural integrity. Generally, it's heat, assisted by an unhealthy dose of aerosol hydrocarbons, and lots of it, operating over a long period. This is commonly associated with an engine that doesn't get a whole lot of preventive maintenance and regular cleaning. And those things, in turn, lead to a whole bucket's worth of issues. I'm not saying that your particular engine is probably going to show the characteristic leaks and cracks in rubber hoses and other parts, the fouling inside the alternator from worn fan belts, the plugging of heat exchanger tubes or the exhaust elbow, the caked oil around gaskets, or deeper issues with valves and rings, but any of the more experienced forum members will probably agree that these things seem to follow each other around.

So, just like when a patient complains about increasing chest pain, fatigue, and a few other associated symptoms, a medical person may begin to put two and two together and check for related symptoms. It sometimes results in saving the life of the patient. Or it infuriates that patient who then goes off, smoking a cigarette and looking for a doctor who will tell him what he wants to hear. He will also, probably, be cursing the person who suggested he might have a bigger issue. I wish you good health and good luck.

I appreciated the advice but not the tone in your first post. My apologies for being uncivil in my reply.

Yes, I'm aware of those inputs to why foam deteriorates. I think heat is the main culprit here given the pattern of where it was worst, but as you say hydrocarbons and water may have contributed given how poor the ventilation is. The engine is an old Universal, and while it does not appear to be fully neglected, the systems are old and some of them are suspect. I replaced the alternator recently, and I'll be doing the shaft seal at the very least when I haul the boat and also giving the cooling system a very close look, among other things. And yes, the light in the engine compartment is a complete joke.

Pulling the engine on a Valiant is no mean feat, requiring basically complete disassembly to get it to the companionway. She runs well and smoothly, does not throw oil or smoke and otherwise seems in good shape. In a perfect world, with time and money to spare I would do as you say, and could well end up going that route when she is hauled.

I'm not going to replace the insulation just yet. That will wait until after everything is gone over when she is up on the hard.

Thanks for your input and expertise. It is appreciated.

[Roy M]

Suijin, I've pulled a couple Valiant 40 engines before. After you pull it out of the engine room, using 2 X 4 skids, hook up the main halyard (you'll need to fold the dodger down). When the engine is out, it's safe to say you won't be putting it back in again. Start shopping now for a nice Yanmar or other engine. Any work you do on the Universal will not get you a significant return on your investment of time, money and skinned knuckles. The Valiant is a hell of a boat. It deserves the best engine you can give it, along with the supplementary ventilation, lighting, etc.

[HopCar]

"all those cheap foams deteriorate readily"
Cheechako, Trust me, the foams we're talking about are not cheap!
The sound insulation I sell in my store is made by Soundown. I once asked them about the crumbling of the foam. I was told it was due to heat and ozone. They said their newer formula should not fall apart like the older foams. Time will tell.

[Phoenician]

A cheap -if time consuming - alternative to the store-bought sound proofing material is to use high density rockwool - which has excellent heat and sound insulation properties.

However, it is essential to cover the rockwool pad (cut to the size you need) with flame retardant fabric (M1 or similar) to keep the dust in.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by HopCar

"all those cheap foams deteriorate readily"
Cheechako, Trust me, the foams we're talking about are not cheap!
The sound insulation I sell in my store is made by Soundown. I once asked them about the crumbling of the foam. I was told it was due to heat and ozone. They said their newer formula should not fall apart like the older foams. Time will tell.

Oh I know they are not cheap regarding $... but they are cheap crappy foam.... The good ones dont use that very lightweight open celled type foam.. and are expensive..
One of my boats, with the engine in the galley, had asbestos acoustic ceiling tile with a lead backing (Taiwan, from the factory) That stuff was great!

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Roy M

Suijin, I've pulled a couple Valiant 40 engines before. After you pull it out of the engine room, using 2 X 4 skids, hook up the main halyard (you'll need to fold the dodger down). When the engine is out, it's safe to say you won't be putting it back in again. Start shopping now for a nice Yanmar or other engine. Any work you do on the Universal will not get you a significant return on your investment of time, money and skinned knuckles. The Valiant is a hell of a boat. It deserves the best engine you can give it, along with the supplementary ventilation, lighting, etc.

Yeah I figured if the old engine came out, it wasn't going back in, lol. I'm flirting with the idea of putting a Yanmar 55 in. We'll see what kind of deal I can get at the boat show in a few weeks.

I'm eyeballing it and I assume it needs to come out through the access area in the rear quarter berth cabin, then around the corner to below the companionway. That looks like the real bear of the whole ordeal, navigating it to that point.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by HopCar

"all those cheap foams deteriorate readily"
Cheechako, Trust me, the foams we're talking about are not cheap!
The sound insulation I sell in my store is made by Soundown. I once asked them about the crumbling of the foam. I was told it was due to heat and ozone. They said their newer formula should not fall apart like the older foams. Time will tell.

I bought a roll of the sound insulation that West Marine stocks so that I could at least reinsulate the engine room door as well as the cabin facing panels that are removable (and so out of the way for further work). I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it is Soundown's basic product (not their better offering) relabeled based on cost, eyeballing it, and specs. It has multiple layers of different density foam; about 1/8" of medium density foam, then 1/8" of what looks like neoprene or rubber, then 6/8" of softer foam, then the foil surface. The foil is fairly fragile, I suspect from the look of it. But were it more rigid it would defeat the acoustic absorption of the subsequent layers, and if it were more tear resistant it would be...even more expensive lol.

[HopCar]

Cheechako, We used to sell an engine room insulation that was a sheet of lead sandwiched by two layers of dense foam and one side was covered by fiberglass reinforced Mylar. The stuff we stock now has some thing called a "mass loaded PVC barrier" where the lead sheet would be. It's a little easier to install than the stuff with an actual lead sheet. It is heavy as hell. I suspect it contains lead powder mixed into the PVC.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by HopCar

Cheechako, We used to sell an engine room insulation that was a sheet of lead sandwiched by two layers of dense foam and one side was covered by fiberglass reinforced Mylar. The stuff we stock now has some thing called a "mass loaded PVC barrier" where the lead sheet would be. It's a little easier to install than the stuff with an actual lead sheet. It is heavy as hell. I suspect it contains lead powder mixed into the PVC.

Yeah, I think I used some of that on some military boats ... very nice stuff, but as you say... heavy. I supppose heavy and dense is what soaks up sound well...

[Roy M]

Suijin, as I recall, you can wiggle the engine out from the access door, then, with someone at the main halyard, someone guiding the hard parts past the teak, and a person with good upper body strength,pulling at the appropriate moments, get the engine out successfully.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I am engaged in the unenviable task of replacing the engine room sound/heat insulation on my boat. The original insulation had started to fall apart, the foil falling away and the foam underneath disintegrating into a disgusting black "dust" that needless to say needs to be kept out of the engine.

I've got the bulk of it out, but much of it tore/fell off leaving a varying layer of foam and adhesive behind, stuck tightly to the wall. I am now faced with removing this crap and was hoping someone had some experience getting it off. Going at it mechanically with a still scraper seem fruitless so far.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Oh, and if anyone has some suggestions for what to use to reinsulate it, I'd love to hear. The cost of this stuff is exorbitant, and and I'd like to know what works and what will last.

You don't indicate what material the glue is, but many adhesives will melt in diesel fuel. Soak a rag and stick it up on the wall for 10 minutes or so. It may soften it enough to easy scrap off, followed by an acetone wipe. Might be worth a try.