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Old 04-09-2013, 11:21   #46
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I think it's good to do alot of your own work. IMHO there are things best left to experience also. I've often working more OT and contracting more rather than attempting some things would be good.... the problem with contracting those things is finding someone who will do it right, honest and fair..... and getting a a firm price.
Often just did it myself rather than run that gamut.

my ex boss (a multi, multi millionaire) had a good saying: "you cant beat a craftsman at his own work.."
Especially for things that are super tool-intensive. No matter how DIY you are there are certain things that a canvas shop, metal shop, or machine shop will always be able to do better than you. Whether they actually do it better than you is a different story.

I think the quote should be restated to "You can't beat a craftsman doing his best work on schedule." But those last two modifiers are what really switch things up.

In your hometown you can source out who's full of **** and who's solid, but so far in cruising land for us you end up with a problem, end up in some random location, and then are stuck with the option of doing it yourself or hiring it out. The "recommendations" you get are more often about businesses referring each other, trying to steer revenue.

At least when you half ass a job, which I've done plenty of times, you know how it's half assed and what to look for if it starts getting pear shaped.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:25   #47
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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In your hometown you can source out who's full of **** and who's solid, but so far in cruising land for us you end up with a problem, end up in some random location, and then are stuck with the option of doing it yourself or hiring it out. The "recommendations" you get are more often about businesses referring each other, trying to steer revenue.

This is exactly why we decided to do a total refit before leaving, right here where we know everyone in the biz and they know us, as opposed to the "refit while cruising" route.
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Old 04-09-2013, 17:43   #48
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

OK. But this way you spend your time refitting, not sailing.

Others may decide to get a 'ready to go' one and ... go.

b.
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Old 04-09-2013, 20:14   #49
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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This is exactly why we decided to do a total refit before leaving, right here where we know everyone in the biz and they know us, as opposed to the "refit while cruising" route.
I guess it depends on how long you sail for as well. After 100k miles and probably long before pretty much every boat needs a full refit again. We've modified a lot of gear and added a lot. Funny enough not much has broken, but we're pretty good with maintenance (aside from varnish).
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:26   #50
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Another big plus to DIY, and I know I'm preaching to the choir, is you have your tools. It's been a long time since I've been unable to work a fastener, make a clean cut, or get some plumbing squared away. Took me a long time and a lot of projects to get my tools up to snuff. Electrical, diesel, rough carpentry, etc.
I think the best argument for doing it yourself is there is a much higher probability of it being done right, even if you have to learn to do it from scratch, even if it's not cost effective relative to the value of your time. The quality of the yard is only a vague guarantee of the quality of their work, as the best yards in the country put their junior guys on any project they can. If the yard is busy, then the supervision can be virtually nil and the work can be done poorly or just flat out wrong. I've spent countless hours on my boat correcting work that was done in some of those yards, and I know for a fact it was them because the previous owner kept the boat there and did virtually none of the work himself. Certainly the more specialized shops have better oversight and quality control, but even then you never know what you're going to get if you're not closely involved.

Sure, I get lots of advice and will hire a professional for certain things, but I watch them like a hawk...both to learn from them and to ensure that they are not cutting corners or McGuyvering a fix for whatever reason.
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Old 05-09-2013, 22:28   #51
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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I think the best argument for doing it yourself is there is a much higher probability of it being done right, even if you have to learn to do it from scratch, even if it's not cost effective relative to the value of your time. The quality of the yard is only a vague guarantee of the quality of their work, as the best yards in the country put their junior guys on any project they can. If the yard is busy, then the supervision can be virtually nil and the work can be done poorly or just flat out wrong. I've spent countless hours on my boat correcting work that was done in some of those yards, and I know for a fact it was them because the previous owner kept the boat there and did virtually none of the work himself. Certainly the more specialized shops have better oversight and quality control, but even then you never know what you're going to get if you're not closely involved.

Sure, I get lots of advice and will hire a professional for certain things, but I watch them like a hawk...both to learn from them and to ensure that they are not cutting corners or McGuyvering a fix for whatever reason.
I love when an owner wants to learn, or even if they are simply curious about the insides of their boat(I'll often take photographs when I'm crawling down inside the cable runs etc). I'm more than happy to have somebody to pass me tools or fetch the occasional part. The owner who is interested in that typically balances out the equation by saving time in some ways while taking it in others. For it to work though, we have to be starting from the assumption that we both want the best possible outcome for the job within the available budget, and that we're working together to accomplish it.





I'm quite curious about what you do for a living?

Unfortunately, the history of your boat is missing whether or not the previous owner wanted to pay the cost of doing things right, or simply wanted the lowest cost possible to get by. 500$ and a lot of fussing doesn't get a 2000$ job done right. At the end of the day, the cost of the time, parts, tools, insurance, and rent is what it is, and must be covered in order to be open the following day. Any less money than that will require sacrifice somewhere, and neither the landlord or the insurance company has interest in that sacrifice coming out of their share. Only so much can come out of our wages before there isn't enough left to survive.


Why would a yard want to put a junior guy on every job? This seems very much backwards, how will the junior guy ever learn how to do a job properly that way? What are their well educated and skilled craftsmen doing at the time?
Those guys aren't cheap, good and truly skilled craftsman are always in high demand, and they don't like standing around.

Now if it's prep work you're talking about, much like a kitchen, less skilled people may be doing it, or assisting, gophering, or being mentored while doing work that can be shown step by step for them to follow and learn.
To continue the kitchen analogy, I'm not sure this approach would go over well at restaurants, standing in the way in the kitchen watching the chef like a hawk to make sure he doesn't cut any corners. I don't know how many chefs would enjoy teaching while preparing your meal? Food poisoning can be very serious too,

There is a reason for that old mechanic's sign that says 100$/hr, 150$ if you watch, 200$ if you help.
The watching reduces the focus that can be directed at the work, and adds a tremendous amount of stress. The persistent talking, moving of tools/parts, and second guessing results in the job taking longer, and usually there isn't any willingness to pay for the additional time that this sort of behavior costs, which was not factored in during the original quote.
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:04   #52
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Why would a yard want to put a junior guy on every job? This seems very much backwards, how will the junior guy ever learn how to do a job properly that way? What are their well educated and skilled craftsmen doing at the time?
Those guys aren't cheap, good and truly skilled craftsman are always in high demand, and they don't like standing around.

Now if it's prep work you're talking about, much like a kitchen, less skilled people may be doing it, or assisting, gophering, or being mentored while doing work that can be shown step by step for them to follow and learn.
To continue the kitchen analogy, I'm not sure this approach would go over well at restaurants, standing in the way in the kitchen watching the chef like a hawk to make sure he doesn't cut any corners. I don't know how many chefs would enjoy teaching while preparing your meal? Food poisoning can be very serious too,
A lot of the time the juniors are "just doing the prep", but come on... for something like a paint job what's harder and more critical: the prep work or pulling the trigger on the spray gun (or moving a paint bush around).

I've seen entry level guys working projects simply because there are only so many master craftsmen to go around. One or two per shop, tops. The other guys do what they're told. And honestly not every junior guy has the aptitude or desire to be a master. Most people don't end up being great either because they don't care enough, they make shitty life choices, or whatever else.
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Old 06-09-2013, 16:06   #53
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A lot of the time the juniors are "just doing the prep", but come on... for something like a paint job what's harder and more critical: the prep work or pulling the trigger on the spray gun (or moving a paint bush around).

I've seen entry level guys working projects simply because there are only so many master craftsmen to go around. One or two per shop, tops. The other guys do what they're told. And honestly not every junior guy has the aptitude or desire to be a master. Most people don't end up being great either because they don't care enough, they make shitty life choices, or whatever else.
All of this applies to kitchens, yet they get left in peace to complete the job for the most part, why is that do you think? Likewise to lawyers and paralegals.


You could have the highly skilled(and paid) craftsman do all of the labour, you just have to ask for that. It will cost a lot more per hour so your bill will be correspondingly higher in the end though.

Choosing appropriate work for someone's skill level is important.

The basic technique for most of it can be taught in a very short time frame. If I can follow along, so can anyone else.
Not the skill to do all of it, or to know why they're doing it, or to fair it out perfectly, but the skill to follow along specific steps in the process and complete them to the satisfaction of the craftsman who is going to be insuring the final step is done to their satisfaction, since they'll be pulling the trigger on the spray gun, and responsible for the outcome.

That is true re: not wanting to become a master, but if they aren't interested in learning enough to do a good job, there's no place for them on boats, the liability is too high, profit margins too thin for deadweight.

Here we have 4 highly skilled people and two less skilled people who float between jobs to assist when it would save money.
I guess it's backwards but it works for us.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:36   #54
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Saucy,
Did you do it in sections or all at once?
OK, when we did the initial job, we did rip up the whole lot, since it was a fairly big job.
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How did you keep track of the where the boards went back?
We numbered them in a sensible order, and drew out a rough plan as well. Nowadays I'd take a photo for reference, and probably print it out and use that as the plan.
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How many planks did you loose to breakage?
I can't remember exactly, although not many. And the ones we did lose, were all in the same place, and I think had something wrong with them.
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How long did you work on this beast of a project?!
Again, I can't really remember. The boat was out of action for six months, but we'd just bought her and did a few other jobs while we were at it.

Xeon - sorry for taking so long to answer, and thanks for your PM directing me here. I don't get to spend as much time on here as I'd like at the moment, so I'm afraid I don't always read follow ups on posts I make

So you asked in the PM:
Quote:
OHH had it to do again.. would you? What would you do different?
OK, when we were doing this, I gave my husband quite a hard time, since this was a new way to me, and I hadn't heard of anything like this before. Also, this was ten years ago, before I really knew how to use the internet to find stuff out and connections were crappy, so I had nobody to ask if this was a good thing or bad. It seemed extreme actually epoxying the teak to the deck. For one thing, I was concerned it would mean we wouldn't be able to lift it and check underneath for more deck rot.

Well, hats off, he was right. It did effectively double the deck depth. It did cut down the amount of work enormously. So next time I would listen to him and trust him. In fact, this experience has changed my approach to doing things the 'accepted'way... not I'm much more willing to take innovative 'risks'.

Yes we do now have a few places where the teak has worn so thin that it needs replacing (and we're waiting till we get to India to do that) - but that's more because the boat and teak is now over thirty years old, and due for a few bits to be be replaced. But she's looking bloody good. If I have time I'll take and post a few photos this afternoon.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:13   #55
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

I removed my old teak decking on 48 foot Bene. This teak decking followed the toe rail from stern to bow in 500mm width (none in the middle of the yacht's deck) and then the cockpit. All up around 20 m2 and spent 80 hours removing and then fixing up the surface underneath.
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Old 18-09-2013, 22:09   #56
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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I removed my old teak decking on 48 foot Bene. This teak decking followed the toe rail from stern to bow in 500mm width (none in the middle of the yacht's deck) and then the cockpit. All up around 20 m2 and spent 80 hours removing and then fixing up the surface underneath.
ciao
Sepeteus, that sounds like a very reasonable time spent; would you consider yourself a skilled, average or below average worker in this area?

When I was looking for a boat I skipped a few Beneteaus just because they had a teak deck, I did not want the stress of maintenance and possibility of leaks. If it is an easy job to remove the teak then maybe my fear had no base?
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Old 18-09-2013, 22:18   #57
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Well, I worked like a dog so my feel is that 80h was a massive job as a prep for the new decking to be installed after.
I am sort if handy on that stuff , however removal of the old deck didn't require any skill just dull mind :-)
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Old 18-09-2013, 22:21   #58
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Shame to have to lose the teak, though - you can't beat it for looks or for keeping decks cool in the heat!
Hi Saucy, I would think the teak deck can get hotter than white fiberglass? On my last boat on hot days on the hard (no wind) I could not walk on the teak with bear feet, only on the white fiberglass areas, the teak got so hot.
Also I believe in the tropics the teak decks heat up the interior more than a white fiberglass deck, would you agree?

Sorry but I find this topic interesting because so far I have been strictly against teak decks after my last boat, too much maintenance, too much heat. I would like to be proven wrong... Because teak decks do look nice when they are in good shape.
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Old 18-09-2013, 22:26   #59
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Well, I worked like a dog so my feel is that 80h was a massive job as a prep for the new decking to be installed after.
I am sort if handy on that stuff , however removal of the old deck didn't require any skill just dull mind :-)
Ciao
Cheers sepeteus, so if I understand correct, if you wanted to remove the teak and leave the deck as fiberglass only it would have required much more work? To finish the deck and to paint and add some anti skid maybe etc, whatever is required?
The 80 hours you did yourself was to prep for the installation of a new teak deck?
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Old 18-09-2013, 22:38   #60
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Hi Saucy, I would think the teak deck can get hotter than white fiberglass? On my last boat on hot days on the hard (no wind) I could not walk on the teak with bear feet, only on the white fiberglass areas, the teak got so hot.
Also I believe in the tropics the teak decks heat up the interior more than a white fiberglass deck, would you agree?

Sorry but I find this topic interesting because so far I have been strictly against teak decks after my last boat, too much maintenance, too much heat. I would like to be proven wrong... Because teak decks do look nice when they are in good shape.
Teak decks are WAY hotter than white fiberglass. The deck is hot regardless, but you'll burn your feet on teak in the tropics.
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