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Old 03-09-2013, 19:14   #31
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

your at 15-20K.
is the teak too thin to save? is it leaking badly?
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Old 03-09-2013, 19:52   #32
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Or maybe they don't. Even at my overtime rate, I make well under half what the yard charges. Assuming $75 per hour for the yard, anyone making less than about $150K a year is breaking even in time. At my straight time rate I make about a third of the going hourly rate around these parts.

And here's the kicker... Since I do shift work I have days off. Time to work on the boat while the admiral and the boy are at school. So I fail to see why I should pay someone $500 to pound and drill rivets out of my mast when I can easily do it myself.

That being said, I did pay a hefty yard bill this last haul out, because unlike your proscribed "simple math" there's a lot more to it. I paid to have the bottom sanded. Did it a few years ago, will gladly pay to have it done. Hats off to the guys that do it. It sucks. I paid to have my mast media blasted. I don't have the equipment to do it. I also paid to have the primers and top-coat sprayed on my mast. I did my own sanding and fairing, but again, it's worth the money to me to have a professional with the proper equipment and technique paint it. I also paid to have two through-hull holes patched (I removed them ), because I managed to grab an OT shift on the day I was planning to do it, and it made more sense to work 24 hours and pay for 4 hours of yard time.

So what if some guy spends more of his time than you think it's worth to do something? You're making a giant assumption that he or she could bill that time spent. At my previous job, my hourly rate was significantly higher than the yard rate. But there wasn't a magic "billable hours" tree I could go shake whenever I felt like working. I was the top biller in the company, but it still wasn't unlimited.

Since I'm feeding the thread drift, two more things...

Tinkering with the boat is cheap therapy for some of us. And we like it. It's a hobby, and hobbies cost money. We know that. Let us be the judge of what and how to spend our own time and money. I gladly pay to have the mechanic change my oil, but I wouldn't dream of paying to have my car washed. Those are my choices based on my math. There are no shortage of folks willing to throw rocks because I don't change my own oil. I like washing my truck. I like working on my boat. Why should I pay for something I like doing?

And yes, it helps me to learn my boat. Unless you're planning on opening a full service yard everywhere I go, it might be worth my time to know how to fix stuff. Education costs time and money. But some things are worth more. When my head quit working out at the islands a couple years ago, it was nice to know how to troubleshoot and fix it, made possible because I installed it. That took a bunch of time on my part not only the physical install, but the research involve to properly plan and execute it. But the time I didn't have to spend sailing back to the yard to have it fixed was worth more to me than any so-called savings I might have realized. Way more.

Sorry to feed the thread drift, but sometimes it isn't just simple math.

JRM
To be fair Minaret did specify 'we make' not 'shop rate'.
Two very different things. If your company billed you out, odds are it was much higher than that what you took home.

For some people(for whom it is a hobby) there's a lot of good to be said for diy. Even then, certain jobs are still more sensible to leave alone, that require specialized tools etc, lots of hours of misery etc.

For others, who hate the activity, fail utterly and ruin their enjoyment of the boat entirely, because they can't bear to part with a dollar, it's a very odd unwillingness.

There is a gentleman here who tried to keep his 75' powerboat clean/polished with family. Family stopped wanting anything to do with it, but not before making huge messes with scotchbrite pads etc.
He badly wanted it polished and waxed but just couldn't accept paying a fair cost to have it done.


For me the most valuable lesson of doing this for work is learning to accept paying others to do certain jobs for me. Something I'd always been unwilling to do before.
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:29   #33
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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To be fair Minaret did specify 'we make' not 'shop rate'.

Exactly, let's compare apples to apples. Either we are comparing the respective take-home, or the respective billing rate. Either way, most boat owners come out ahead. Their firms are billing at higher rates than ours, and their personal take home is higher as well. So saying you can't understand where the numbers come from is rather disingenuous in that case. If your company bills $300/hr, and mine bills $100, where's the beef? Just 'cause we didn't have to go to college? Even though they went to college and still can't do it? And we physically work several times as hard? It's just a mindset of white collar exlusivity that I dislike. Plumbers and mechanics get the same thing. Any tradesman that bills $100/hr or more does in the US.
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:52   #34
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

Another big plus to DIY, and I know I'm preaching to the choir, is you have your tools. It's been a long time since I've been unable to work a fastener, make a clean cut, or get some plumbing squared away. Took me a long time and a lot of projects to get my tools up to snuff. Electrical, diesel, rough carpentry, etc.

And Jim was right about "experts" billing you through the nose to do a shitty job. Most professionals I've met are just that, but especially outside of the first world things get a lot more murky.
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:54   #35
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

I have no choice, but to do my own work! I have always worked as minaret say's, by the hour! working for shops that charged a bunch more then I made! LOL but I have the ability to do my own work! From engines to paint spraying, from fiberglass to welding steel and alloys, and even my own machine work, and props! I consider myself to be lucky to be able to cus I sure can't afford to hire it done! But ya know at my age, I sometimes think about how nice it would be to have MONEY LOL But ya know when I get to help out a fellow cruiser in a anchorage out there! I feel pretty good about knowing how to fix stuff !!!
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Old 03-09-2013, 21:58   #36
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Exactly, let's compare apples to apples. Either we are comparing the respective take-home, or the respective billing rate. Either way, most boat owners come out ahead. Their firms are billing at higher rates than ours, and their personal take home is higher as well. So saying you can't understand where the numbers come from is rather disingenuous in that case. If your company bills $300/hr, and mine bills $100, where's the beef? Just 'cause we didn't have to go to college? Even though they went to college and still can't do it? And we physically work several times as hard? It's just a mindset of white collar exlusivity that I dislike. Plumbers and mechanics get the same thing. Any tradesman that bills $100/hr or more does in the US.
Haha, sounds like you've been talking to the same customers I have been this week. 'But I think it should be cheaper and faster' 'I don't want to pay anything until it's in the water and I'm happy' 'the parts cost too much, I need a discount on the labour
'I don't want to keep coming in to make payments, it's too many meetings and I can't keep coming in all the time'.

All the comments from the same guy who refuses to make an appointment and drops in to take up time at least every third day and twice on weekends... without the required weekly cheque as per the milestones we agreed too. Better yet, we're ahead of schedule and on budget for the original work. Insisting on buying parts to prevent any profit there, while asking for a discount on labor. Hiding facts that became obvious as soon as we encountered the problems caused by them, then wanting those issues corrected within the same budget and time frame as the original work as though simply hiding the problem until we got to the bottom of it would prevent it costing money... we're redoing one job on his boat that he wants done for the same price as the last time.

His take home is the same as the shop rate(he told us during one complaint over cost, when the guy doing the job is brilliant with 25 years experience and a fantastic skillset) Should last decades, only lasted 2 years and was a complete write off... those who refuse to learn from history.


Guess we're getting off topic though.
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:03   #37
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Haha, sounds like you've been talking to the same customers I have been this week. 'But I think it should be cheaper and faster' 'I don't want to pay anything until it's in the water and I'm happy' 'the parts cost too much, I need a discount on the labour
'I don't want to keep coming in to make payments, it's too many meetings and I can't keep coming in all the time'.

All the comments from the same guy who refuses to make an appointment and drops in to take up time at least every third day and twice on weekends... without the required weekly cheque as per the milestones we agreed too. Better yet, we're ahead of schedule and on budget for the original work. Insisting on buying parts to prevent any profit there. Hiding facts that became obvious as soon as we encountered the problems caused by them, then wanting those issues corrected within the same budget and time frame as the original work as though simply hiding the problem until we got to the bottom of it would prevent it costing money... we're redoing one job on his boat that he wants done for the same price as the last time.

Good Should last decades, only lasted 2 years and was a complete write off... those who refuse to learn from history.



All extremely familiar. Bunch of whiners that wanna get over. I don't go the extra mile for those guys. But for those who show up regularly, ask questions, do work, show respect, and obviously love their boats, I'm there after hours working for free. All the time. Because I like to help those people.


Oh, crap! this is my 4,000th post. Shameful...
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:24   #38
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All extremely familiar. Bunch of whiners that wanna get over. I don't go the extra mile for those guys. But for those who show up regularly, ask questions, do work, show respect, and obviously love their boats, I'm there after hours working for free. All the time. Because I like to help those people.

Oh, crap! this is my 4,000th post. Shameful...
Truth. I love the smile from the guy who loves his boat and sees the work involved when you've worked right through the night yet again and they're off on holidays. Nothing like a text from them on the trip to make it all worthwhile even on the worst days. They don't ever see everything they get for free but they appreciate the work involved and that's enough.
Funny too, they seem to run into so few problems relative to the seagull boat owners(fly in, squawk, crap on everything and leave).
We had one yesterday(labour day no less). With a totally plugged head all the way to the overboard discharge pump. Flushing rags and paper towels all week then pumping overboard. They spent the entire time bouncing in and out of the boiling hot engine room, demanding we hurry up, charge less and stop it from smelling while we worked. Angry that we wanted bilge blowers on due to noise, and angry we were delaying their holiday.
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:29   #39
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Truth. I love the smile from the guy who loves his boat and sees the work involved when you've worked right through the night yet again and they're off on holidays. Nothing like a text from them on the trip to make it all worthwhile even on the worst days. They don't ever see everything they get for free but they appreciate the work involved and that's enough.
Funny too, they seem to have so few problems relative to the seagull boat owners(fly in, squawk, crap on everything and leave).
We had one yesterday(labour day no less). With a totally plugged head all the way to the overboard discharge pump. They spent the entire bouncing in and out of the boiling hot engine room, demanding we guru

Too true. I still get at least a dozen Christmas cards every year from clients who've been out cruising for some time now. And they STILL appreciate all the extra time, effort, and info I put into their refit. In some cases these people have remembered me for fifteen years or more. Makes me happy. "Seagull" owners, I'm stealing that one!
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:34   #40
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:43   #41
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Too true. I still get at least a dozen Christmas cards every year from clients who've been out cruising for some time now. And they STILL appreciate all the extra time, effort, and info I put into their refit. In some cases these people have remembered me for fifteen years or more. Makes me happy. "Seagull" owners, I'm stealing that one!
From an old Dilbert comic I think. About Seagull bosses.

Exactly! The sad thing is the amazing customers never really realize how special they are. Even when we tell them! We had a guy from cf with a nice older sailboat a few months ago, simple job bit of engine damage, but he was so nice about it all that we still remember him! Maybe a dozen customers in the last few months that nice The free extras or time reduction or even simply being able to stay on budget despite the usual surprises for customers like that are possible because of how they approach the work, saving all the time and money wasted by the seagull type.
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Old 03-09-2013, 23:09   #42
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

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Too true. I still get at least a dozen Christmas cards every year from clients who've been out cruising for some time now. And they STILL appreciate all the extra time, effort, and info I put into their refit. In some cases these people have remembered me for fifteen years or more. Makes me happy. "Seagull" owners, I'm stealing that one!
We used to call the old bitter guys on the dock the "pelican club".

They stand around the docks, looking down their noses, shitting on everything.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:27   #43
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

Saucy,
Did you do it in sections or all at once?
How did you keep track of the where the boards went back?
How many planks did you loose to breakage?
How long did you work on this beast of a project?

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Originally Posted by SaucySailoress View Post
Shame to have to lose the teak, though - you can't beat it for looks or for keeping decks cool in the heat!

When we bought our current boat, the first thing we did was lift the teak, since the shrouds were lifting the decks. Both decks under those shrouds were rotten, so we cut away all the fibreglass and ply, and redid that first.

Then we relaid the teak - but this time we epoxied it to the deck giving us double strength decks, effectively. We also used black epoxy instead of caulking between the teak planks and in the old screw holes, and sanded it all down.

That was ten years ago. Every now and then we have had to do a bit of patching but the decks still look great. And we no longer have to scrape out that bloody caulking every few years!!
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:25   #44
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Exactly, let's compare apples to apples. Either we are comparing the respective take-home, or the respective billing rate. Either way, most boat owners come out ahead. Their firms are billing at higher rates than ours, and their personal take home is higher as well. So saying you can't understand where the numbers come from is rather disingenuous in that case. If your company bills $300/hr, and mine bills $100, where's the beef? Just 'cause we didn't have to go to college? Even though they went to college and still can't do it? And we physically work several times as hard? It's just a mindset of white collar exlusivity that I dislike. Plumbers and mechanics get the same thing. Any tradesman that bills $100/hr or more does in the US.
I respectfully disagree. I make my take-home. I pay shop rate. So what, if in my previous life, my company billed more for my services? That's life. They have costs like the yard has costs. But I have to compare what I bring in versus what I lay out. I can't compare what I make vs. what you make, because that's not the number on the invoice.

People are people. The guy that's a tool to his waitstaff at a restaurant is probably going to be a tool in the yard. The guy that's cheap is going to be cheap in the yard. It's life.

I had a great yard experience, and the folks there made me feel like a friend more than a customer. Always there to offer a suggestion or show me a better technique. In the end, they got their pound of flesh from me, but it was worth every penny I paid, and I'll be back.

JRM
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:41   #45
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Re: Removing a Teak Deck and Prices

I think it's good to do alot of your own work. IMHO there are things best left to experience also. I've often working more OT and contracting more rather than attempting some things would be good.... the problem with contracting those things is finding someone who will do it right, honest and fair..... and getting a a firm price.
Often just did it myself rather than run that gamut.

my ex boss (a multi, multi millionaire) had a good saying: "you cant beat a craftsman at his own work.."
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