Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

Good old boats. You'd think that me of all people would know better but NOOOOO, now I own five of the beasties... The latest is a Doug Petesrson design that won the half tonner worlds in 1975 before Bayliner bought the molds. A Bayliner 295. Actually, a nice, fast, well equipped little boat. This one with wheel steering and fairly fresh sails. Looking forward to sailing and then selling her. So are the boys...

Did you buy that 295 recently? I saw one advertised at a super good price up here a few months ago..... bayliner got a few good molds and built a few good boat designs.... too bad their rep is so bad from the Bucaneer line!

[Cheechako]

Here is my fear. I fear that a lot of cruisers are too safety-oriented. They are like the parents who are scared of their children being kidnapped by strangers. An almost unheard of occurrence but one that has a huge emotional appeal. I do want to lower my risk, but don't want to pay an exponential price for safety.

I can understand this... I think it is somewhat true. I know people who bought a working boat (Pan Asiatic 48? or something like that) and went cruising. They repaired or lived with what they had. When done they sold the boat for what they paid for it. The only major thing they did along the way was order a mainsail to replace a blown out one. They went cruising for much less money than the rest of us worriers. It is possible. Your risks do go up for sure.... to many, dealing with a dismasting due to old rigging is a nightmare, as is a blown motor trying to make a port at the end of the day, or fuel tank leaking into the bilge.... It's quite possible your average used boat is far better than Josua Slocum's was.... hard to say!

[jm21]

Originally Posted by s/v Breakaway

Plus I hear boats go for more $ in Aus than US(?)

Yes, that's part of the plan...if my wife doesn't like living on a boat after a year or two we can sell and at least break even...but not if we sink thousands and thousands of dollars into the boat in upgrades that most people don't care much about.

I've been drooling over boats for a very long time now, lived on one for a bit, owned one for a bit...grew up sailing...the only time I have ever seen a boat for sale with a new mast was because they hit a bridge. But not a lot of people do ocean sailing here. Almost every boat I've ever looked at had original or near original standing rigging. I've seen a lot of new sails and new motors, new gelcoats and all sorts of doo-dads....but very very few boats with new standing rigging. If it really does need to be replaced every 12 years a whole lot of people missed the memo.

The only boats I've seen for sale with newer rigging (installed in the last 10 years) that was intentionally upgraded are ones that people intended to take cruising but never made it through the refit process...and then they sit around and deteriorate... and by the time the owner finally relinquishes the dream and puts the boat up for sale it has sat on the hard for a long time or it sat through a PNW winter with a leaky something and is rotted out...looking at one of those this evening....new engine, rigging, and sails but possibly lots of rot...


ctl411,

I don't believe a lot of boats are selling for 2-3 times nada, but a lot of buyers are asking that. I think offering less than half the asking price on some boats is pretty reasonable.

[mitiempo]

jm21

There are differing uses - if you are going to weekend and spend a few weeks each summer sailing the Gulf Islands or San Juans a full refit is hardly required.

On the other hand a trip to Australia is a bit different and will test each piece of gear quite differently.

[ctl411]

I tried offering half he replied he put that much in it over the past few years. I'm not sure it is really for sale so I will keep looking.

[jm21]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

jm21

There are differing uses - if you are going to weekend and spend a few weeks each summer sailing the Gulf Islands or San Juans a full refit is hardly required.

On the other hand a trip to Australia is a bit different and will test each piece of gear quite differently.

I get that...but how different and how do you measure how much a rig needs replacing?

We get some 30-40 knot winds now and then...I've sailed through a couple and never had any real problems aside from being over-canvassed and not enough ways to reduce sail area....no problems with 40+ year old rigging on my old boat...sailed in strong winds plenty on other boats with no problems...so it doesn't seem like the ability to withstand high winds is the problem...

Then is it the constant use? That seems more likely...do rigs have a certain number of hours of use typically? So what about a boat with 40 year old rigging that has only been used a few days a year (let's face it, most people motor in the PNW because the winds suck during the summer)? But a sail under a decent breeze doesn't seem to put that much pressure on the rigging...but I know sometimes appearances can be very deceiving...

Do most cruisers really install new rigging every 10-12 years? That seems like it would get insanely expensive very fast.

I don't mean to be too stubborn, it's just I've been reading about cruising a long time and there seems to be very little solid, factual information on the risks of older rigging and why it needs to be replaced...just flat statements that you should replace the rigging every X number of years. I know humans are incredibly bad at doing risk-assessment so I'm a little skeptical about that kind of flat recommendation...

[mitiempo]

Rigging ages at the dock or in use. The stress of use will add to this but the corrosion in the swages exists regardless.

Serge at Mainstay in Victoria says you should get 16-17 years out of good rigging in this area - cold climate and lots of rain helps. In the tropics with warmer salt water and less rain he says 7 years is about max.

[jm21]

7 years? From a financial perspective you might as well part out the mast, rigging, and sails and add extra tankage for the diesel. Or start building that junk rig.

Doesn't seem possible to me as there are plenty of boats going around this area with 40+ year old rigs, but if that's really the case, I will be looking into dismasted sailboats with much greater interest...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by jm21

So what would I spend $30+k on necessary refurbishments?

I understand where you are coming from - my take is how much you spend primarily depends on what you buy (structural costs money) and then what you can / want to live with cosmetically (that can be a biggie, if seeking perfection) - and after that throw in what systems you either need or would simply like (IMO nothing wrong with "like") - which are currently not fitted, not working or on last legs. Also need to factor in what sort of longevity you are trying to acheive - just enough to get from A to B (or a year or 2 - and then let the next owner worry about / sort out stuff) or good for (another) 40 years.

On specifics, need to think carefully about use and consequences of a failure (on health and pocket) before deciding whether to bother or not. 20 year old rigging failing (leading to a lost mast) may just be a PITA in home waters (and a short row ashore!) - other side of the world would likely be a different matter, on cost and in aggro even if nothing more serious. Each has to weigh up the risks - never forget that ignorance does get many folk a long way. and happily as well - for some it is a lifestyle choice ......one doesn't tend to hear the stories that start off with "I was as dumb as rocks.........." , because even those who suffer the consequences often still don't recognise that as a cause .

I personally feel that "safety" is all in the mind (from knowledge and experiance - even if that is limited on some things to understanding you lack the knowledge and experiance) - and not purchased from a glossy brochure. What do you spend the money on? An EPIRB and a liferaft or rebedding 20 yo thru hulls (with new hoses all double clipped) and maybe a few compartments that could be made watertight and some new rigging / making sure the chainplates are sound......if you don't sink you won't need rescuing (from yourself? ).

It's all choices .

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

jm21

There are differing uses - if you are going to weekend and spend a few weeks each summer sailing the Gulf Islands or San Juans a full refit is hardly required.

On the other hand a trip to Australia is a bit different and will test each piece of gear quite differently.

I disagree to some extent, The trip to Oz is a down hill ride, unless you are unlucky even then its not the end of the world as everything can be fixed anywhere and parts are a couple of weeks away thanks to the web. . If you cruise, take it easy, don't push the limits of equipment try and be sympathetic to the boat. you could to it in a tub...many do. The boats that do come unstuck where from crew errors, having up too much sail or hitting a reef.
This is not to say you should not do the maintenance or fix what needs fixing, simply do what needs to be done and enjoy, but you don't need to replace everything or do a complete refit.

[mitiempo]

I agree you don't need to replace everything. But rigging that is decades old? I would.

Agree with David on all hoses and inspecting the through hulls - many boats have seacocks that haven't been closed in years and can't close when you try them.

Ask to see the maintenance records - whether the owner paid for the work or did it himself it should be listed. If he doesn't keep records or is sloppy in some areas with maintenance I expect he ignored what you can't see as well to a certain extent.

[CharlieCobra]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Did you buy that 295 recently? I saw one advertised at a super good price up here a few months ago..... bayliner got a few good molds and built a few good boat designs.... too bad their rep is so bad from the Bucaneer line!

She was an auction boat I got last month.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

She was an auction boat I got last month.

Yep, I think that's the one!

[Galdarol]

Originally Posted by sneuman

The first thing among the "must haves" I would cross off the list are electronics. Chances are great they are already outdated when you purchased the boat, and guaranteed they are completely outdated by the time the refit is finished. Nothing wrong with outdated electronics -- I have a 20-year-old radar that seems to work just fine -- but don't assume any of them will have any monetary value by the time you start cruising. You're either going to use the outdated stuff that's there when you bought the boat or replace part or all of it with new-fangled gizmos. Either way, there is no value to the electronics suite you get when you buy a refurb project.

I don't know enough about boat electronics, yet, but due to corrosion factors, you may find that boat electronics use a certain amount of gold.
As someone who's scrapped things from nails to a Boeing 747, you'd be surprised what you find.
But I may be completely wrong. Or maybe I should shut up, find out for myself and buy everyone else's junk

[Galdarol]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

+1

Took me a while to learn that

Absolutely

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

4) have bought a 90 degree cordless drill from the start

5) have bought a sanding disc for the drill early on....bit of a bodger's mate but quick to shift stuff

6) had some small projects that I could finish, so I could feel progress (even if a bit of a self-delusion ).

7) Not nap so much in the afternoons .

I take back all the times I said I didn't want a nap.
Cordless tools are the way to go. The small lithium-ion from Makita 10.8/12V are easy on the hands.
When I was scrapping motor homes I could undo 1/4 and 5/16" screws all day without much fatigue.
I have a 90 degree attachment for it also.
Small projects are great. Sometimes they help to "ramp up" the day.