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Old 10-08-2010, 08:52   #31
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Make a list of all the work you would want to have done and then go get a bid from 2 or 3 sources.

Engine $20~30k
Genset $10k
Paint, deck $500/ft, hull $150/ft
Rigging $20k
Sails, $30k
..
.
.
.
Your over $100k right there and there will be more.

Is it worth it? Maybe if you pick the right boat. Can it be a total loss, sure if you run out of money before you finish the project.

It's a safe bet to go buy the new Bene 50. Good luck

Our 1974 C&C 61. Refit near completion, we know the numbers fairly well.

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Old 10-08-2010, 09:08   #32
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This is not intended to be a judgement of your personality, or you spouse's. I completely respect your right to like or dislike anything in your life.
But your comments suggest that your heart is not in this project.
Experience has shown me that very rarely does this improve with time. A number of other posts, I think will support what you are really in for.
I have personally gutted and re-built a 41ft yawl over 4 1/2 yrs and $80K. My other half has not set foot on it in 3yrs, and it it moored in front of my house.
Please think long and hard about this move.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:46   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenjammin View Post
When we started shopping for our dreamboat and I started to talk about rejuvenating an old, unloved but classically beautiful wooden ketch, my better half asked me "Do you want to spend the next two years being a sailor or a handyman?"

I very quickly came to the conclusion I wanted to sail.

Im sure its a wonderful feeling of accomplishment bringing an unloved piece of yesteryear back to life, but for me DIY spells "work" and sailing spells "adventure". Full respect to the DIY'ers out there, but to me sailing and refurbing are two totally separate (dare I say alien?) concepts. And if you run into unexpected expenses while you are cruising, at least it's happening somewhere more exotic than your local hardware store.
My former, now unfortunately late father in law had that same experience. He'd buy surplus US Navy ships (including a wooden-hulled minesweeper) and rebuild them, living on them while he did.

After he finished the first one he took it out several times, and discovered he didn't like the experience that much (should have tried sailing).

He did like working on boats, and proceeded to sell that one, buy another, and do it again. The second time went a lot faster, since he had already learned why you had to buy marine bronze fittings, instead of household brass, etc.

He did that for awhile, then moved onto flipping houses. He was quite a craftsman.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:48   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Make a list of all the work you would want to have done and then go get a bid from 2 or 3 sources.

Engine $20~30k
Genset $10k
Paint, deck $500/ft, hull $150/ft
Rigging $20k
Sails, $30k
..
.
.
.
Your over $100k right there and there will be more.

Is it worth it? Maybe if you pick the right boat. Can it be a total loss, sure if you run out of money before you finish the project.

It's a safe bet to go buy the new Bene 50. Good luck

Our 1974 C&C 61. Refit near completion, we know the numbers fairly well.

A beutiful boat, and a proper-sized ensign!
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:05   #35
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i have a question--having purchased , with knowledge aforehand that i would be spending my life essentially on the hard with this boat i bought--i found this formosa 41 for dirt cheap--but i know what needs to be done and what doesnt before buying this boat--i knew i had to replace rotten wood--helluva project--pix in another forum, and knew i had to replace the engine(more pix in even another forum!)--i watched previous owner blow it up--nice and spectacular ----these are not projects fro wimps or boat virgins--yard work is running 85-100 dollars per HOUR of work---your boat --no pix to show the damages, etc--dont know how long the refit would take-that sets you up for a helluva yard bill--have to watch the yards so they dont do stuff that is irrelevant--is somuch easier if you know what is happening and what to do for the boat--is important to know all the systems yourself--who are you going to call in the midle of the night in the middle of a storm when the X bites the dust and ye cant fix it----or the fuel filter clogs in the middle of a passage --what to do!! what to do !!!! yipes --isnt any tow truk in middle of oceans.
if you do decide to get a project into which your heart isnt set--no passion--it is going to be abandoned....when the extent of the refit exceeds the expected amount of money to invest into it, then what happens??? this is a stinky market and half done boats dont sell except to rabidly passionate souls.
i have to agree wioth the consensus here---i think a fully fiberglass boat--one of the catahuntebenelinas...no wood. no refit. no muss, no fuss.....NO WOOD!!!! i LOVE the wood in and outside of my formosa---i love my leaky teaky--i wouldnt trade it except for another, and i have electronics on board--came with boat---if the older boat has so much to do and there is no passion.why do it????? what is the call to buy a boat that is not loved from the get go?? i would have given up on this boat before i started it if i hadnt the passion for it i have...

is the passion that drives the refiit--i think you guys need to keep looking until the passion hits and then buy that boat.
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Old 10-08-2010, 20:51   #36
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Ya know, I keep seeing these rate quotes and it makes me think I ain't charging enough... Our rate, as of Aug 1, is $75 per hour. That shop hour gets you myself and two others on your boat. if I have all five of us working the boat, it's each hour times 1.35. If there's only two guys working your boat, it's each hour times .68. I happen to think that's fair. Folks should charge for the time they actually WORK as far as I can tell.

Maybe I oughta start a franchise?
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:32   #37
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Originally Posted by CharlieCobra View Post
Ya know, I keep seeing these rate quotes and it makes me think I ain't charging enough... Our rate, as of Aug 1, is $75 per hour. That shop hour gets you myself and two others on your boat. if I have all five of us working the boat, it's each hour times 1.35. If there's only two guys working your boat, it's each hour times .68. I happen to think that's fair. Folks should charge for the time they actually WORK as far as I can tell.

Maybe I oughta start a franchise?
Dunno where you are, but using a craftsman and two helpers imputes, perhaps, 35/20/20 or maybe 45/15/15 per hour, or thereabouts.

Most yards that I've had any business dealings with would have a $75 floor - for the craftsman, mind you, not a crew - for all but the most menial work, and go up from there. Backwater areas might find a 60 and up base rate for a "mechanic" (one who has the skills to do anything more than "labor").

Agreed to charge only "as worked" but if you have to go offsite, it's pretty common to add a trip charge. OTOH, if you have to make lots of short trips, most of my experience has the yard/contractor mitigating that portion.

Case in point was the labor to remove (and replace), for repair, our furler mechanism in Maine a couple of summers ago. Labor rate was $95 for a single person...

YMMV and the market controls what's achievable, but it seems to me that you're way underpriced. If it floats your boat, and you're not overwhelmed with the business, more power to ya :{))

To the original, likely all 5 could be profitably (meaning, useful, not overstaffed) engaged in the restoration. That would work out to about $100/hour of time.

Since likely you've done that sort of thing before, what time budget would you have to gut and redo a 50 footer, and what would the material costs likely be?


L8R

Skip
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Old 11-08-2010, 14:15   #38
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Ya know, I keep seeing these rate quotes and it makes me think I ain't charging enough... Our rate, as of Aug 1, is $75 per hour. That shop hour gets you myself and two others on your boat...
If (as I believe) you're fully qualified (not just "talented", but learning as you go); you are NOT charging enough.

A company should charge not less that 1.5 times it's cost of labour (wages paid + all costs & benefits), up to a more normal 2.5 times cost.
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Old 11-08-2010, 14:27   #39
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Would you guys stop it. I'm going to have trouble sailing with Charlie if his head gets any bigger, much less using him to maintain my boat!
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Old 11-08-2010, 14:42   #40
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My Husband and Myself have easily spent over $20,000 on general maintenance and fitting our boat to go cruising. Our boat is a 1985. We have completed all the work ourselves except for a couple of jobs.

We have not replaced the rigging which I still would like to do if we keep the boat. We have hauled it out twice and scraped, sanded, and painted the bottom ourselves. I have been off from work this last year and able to work during the week on the boat. If we had paid the yard just to do the bottom it would have cost us three times what it did for us to do it ourselves...

It just depends on the extent of the refit. We installed a water maker, solar panels, and an arch for instance. If you are not going cruising you may not need all that.

Our boat has suited our needs and allowed us to learn a ton about so many aspects of it. It has taken a lot of $$$$ and hours of our time. It has been a labor of love and at times a nice, new boat would have sounded pretty good to me. But I like boats with a little history under their keel and a little salt on their toerail and well, that is a matter of preference...

I wish you well with your decision...
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Old 11-08-2010, 14:47   #41
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We are outfitting our boat (by no means is it a 'rebuild') and have spent WAAAAY more money on it than we imagined. My point? If he *thinks* it can be done for 20K - I would multiply that by 3 or 4 and then you *might* be in the ballpark. No joke. It is unbeliveable how fast things add up. Check out this site. He is doing a complete rebuild, you might want to ask his opinion on the matter. Very good guy and doing incredible work on his boat (we've picked his brain more than once, we have the same boat).

Good luck!

Brittany
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Old 11-08-2010, 21:47   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
Dunno where you are, but using a craftsman and two helpers imputes, perhaps, 35/20/20 or maybe 45/15/15 per hour, or thereabouts.

Most yards that I've had any business dealings with would have a $75 floor - for the craftsman, mind you, not a crew - for all but the most menial work, and go up from there. Backwater areas might find a 60 and up base rate for a "mechanic" (one who has the skills to do anything more than "labor").

Agreed to charge only "as worked" but if you have to go offsite, it's pretty common to add a trip charge. OTOH, if you have to make lots of short trips, most of my experience has the yard/contractor mitigating that portion.

Case in point was the labor to remove (and replace), for repair, our furler mechanism in Maine a couple of summers ago. Labor rate was $95 for a single person...

YMMV and the market controls what's achievable, but it seems to me that you're way underpriced. If it floats your boat, and you're not overwhelmed with the business, more power to ya :{))

To the original, likely all 5 could be profitably (meaning, useful, not overstaffed) engaged in the restoration. That would work out to about $100/hour of time.

Since likely you've done that sort of thing before, what time budget would you have to gut and redo a 50 footer, and what would the material costs likely be?


L8R

Skip
I knew I had to start low and build a rep and customer base. We aren't overflowing with work yet but hope to get that way. To totally gut a 50' boat, glass or wood? To totally gut the boat and redo the engine, electrical, driveline and interior, probably 75K at minimum. Add total paint of hull, bottom and decks, another 15K. Refresh the rigging? Cost of the new wire and swages etc plus about 2K to string it and tune. I could see the boat coming in around 90-100K plus the cost of the boat. Considering that, has anybody priced a new 50 footer lately?
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Old 11-08-2010, 21:49   #43
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If (as I believe) you're fully qualified (not just "talented", but learning as you go); you are NOT charging enough.

A company should charge not less that 1.5 times it's cost of labour (wages paid + all costs & benefits), up to a more normal 2.5 times cost.

Gord, we're at the very low end of that scale at the moment. I'd love to make a bit more but we'll have to pay our dues first. At least our overhead is low....
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Old 11-08-2010, 21:50   #44
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Would you guys stop it. I'm going to have trouble sailing with Charlie if his head gets any bigger, much less using him to maintain my boat!
Don't sweat it. We'll work it out...
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:53   #45
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Gord, we're at the very low end of that scale at the moment. I'd love to make a bit more but we'll have to pay our dues first. At least our overhead is low....
Yes, I was assuming low overehead (no non-productive staff, home office, etc).
I understand paying your dues, and building a reputation.
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