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Old 04-04-2012, 06:48   #1
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Refit 45 foot monohull

Hi everyone.
We are living in China near Hong Kong and have out eyes on a 45 foot monohull build in the early 80's. Had a Survey done and inspected her my self. The boat in question is sound but needs quite some work done. Here a short and incomplete listing:
Re wiring throughout, new heads and water system hot and cold, new electronics, partly new interior due to the re wiring and plumbing, new through hulls.
Mast rigging seems ok from what we know, running gear needs partial replacement, winches servicing as well as windlass.

Would like to prepare for air conditioning but not install at present due to the cost.
Sails are in satisfactory condition and can still be used for a while.

I am sure quite a few sailors on this board had similar projects done and we would appreciate a rough price indication to have the above mentioned work done. if handy hone possesses a "inventory list" it would be helpful as well.
Our expectations are " well done but not luxury"
Any input would be appreciated.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:56   #2
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

The main factors in estimating your cost will be whether or not you have a convenient place to have the boat hauled out on the hard with access to a tool shop/ work space which will not cost you the world and if you plan to do the work yourself.

It is much better to do the types of things you indicated yourself and correctly because it is so very irritating when electric issues crop up and you have no real idea where to start running them down.

The other thing I might say is that you have not scratched the surface with regards to the projects you will want to complete. Owning an old boat is a process - the sooner you see the work as enjoyable, the better.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:21   #3
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiabbo View Post
The main factors in estimating your cost will be whether or not you have a convenient place to have the boat hauled out on the hard with access to a tool shop/ work space which will not cost you the world and if you plan to do the work yourself.

It is much better to do the types of things you indicated yourself and correctly because it is so very irritating when electric issues crop up and you have no real idea where to start running them down.

The other thing I might say is that you have not scratched the surface with regards to the projects you will want to complete. Owning an old boat is a process - the sooner you see the work as enjoyable, the better.
Thanks xiabbo, true advice! The boat is on the hard at the moment, but I will have limited time to work on it my self . Most of it will need to be contracted, but at least in SE Asia the labor costs are within reasons, and I can oversees the work progress on a regular basis.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:28   #4
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

The best way to proceed with something like this....I have found, is to build a database of all the items you will need to purchase to "refit" your boat. Use westmarine or defender websites and shopping carts, fill them up online with everything you think you'll need, then add 40% to the total. In my experience that'll cover most all of the extra costs. If you have something similar to these websites in your neck of the woods, even better as the prices will be more accurate.
I have no idea what labor costs are over there, but I would imagine the lower labor would cover the increased costs of some things.

Good luck.
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Old 04-04-2012, 14:04   #5
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Just a stab at it. Maybe 50 to 70k. Keeping the mast up is fairly important so replacing your standing rigging ought to be priced in for an older boat. You didn't mention tbe engine. Way big range on new electronics costs AP radar instruments chart plotter AIS etc.
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Old 04-04-2012, 14:19   #6
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

One thing to consider is that the wiring and plumbing work should be scheduled separately, because those crews would be on top of each other if they attempted to work at the same time. This will add at least two weeks to the time the project will take, and will therefore add to whatever costs accrue.

Are you planning to serve as your own project manager? If so, you may want to consider which jobs should be completed prior to the others. For example, will it be more efficient to attend to the wiring prior to the plumbing?

BTW, if you specify the boat you're looking at, rather than just the generic "45-foot monohull," there's a good chance that someone on this forum may already have restored a sistership.
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Old 04-04-2012, 15:38   #7
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Dear Gabilo,

The biggest part of the electrical refit is, believe it or not, making the wire runs. This can be a very therapeutic project. Believe me, when everything is wet and a lee shore looms it is comforting to remember how all of your wires are soldered copper, insulated properly with extra heavy gauge wire.

I highly recommend "The Twelve Volt Doctor". You can make 85% of the runs with a few measurements and a scaled line drawing. You don't need much space, a table with the gear at hand. Go with high quality braided copper one gauge higher than standard.
Use properly fitted findings and solder each one carefully. Whip the ends with vinyl electric tape.

The ones you have left over can be right handy to have. Make them extra long so the runs may be routed, neat and hopefully identified. I agree with the other posters to this thread. If I may be permitted to speak for us and many others like us, we are excited for your campaign to get on the water and we are here to vicariously enjoy and help if we can.
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Old 04-04-2012, 16:00   #8
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Ive seen plenty of people ripping their boats apart, in most cases its cheaper to get a new one really.. And much faster too.. They get stuck on some boatyard, spass all their money on the project, and never go anywhere. If it sails, sail it.
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Old 04-04-2012, 18:27   #9
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

to echo idpnd, I 've spent 10 times the purchase price on the refit of my 26' boat. However, I've done all the work myself and have got some very good deals on materials and equipment. In my case, i could not get a boat to rival mine for my cash investment, and she is stout. I know every core, every fiberglass tab, and wire connection in her. Good luck with your project.

Btw, i'd do the electrical first. Many plumbing systems depend on electricity.
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Old 04-04-2012, 19:13   #10
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

gabilo - Last year, I completed what sounds like a similar refit (rebuild) on a 46' sloop. The experience and advice I could share about this decision is legion. Details of the 'cradle to grave' project are here: COUP D'ETAT (USA414).

But this is where I would start (apology if the cut/paste formatting is rough):

Refit Epilogue
During re-commissioning last June, I was asked the $60M question: "Would you do this again with a small boat shop?" The question came from the GM of a small, competing yard with a sincere desire to grow his own business. So I thought to reflect on this question a bit.

The answer is "yes, maybe". In hindsight, I've learned some lessons about working with a boutique yard that are worth sharing.

Size aside, stuff to consider before even contemplating a 'project' boat:

Passion: does your wife/husband/SO share this passion? - You'll need her or his (and your dog's) spiritual, financial and mental support and shoulder (and doghouse) once in a while. If not, think twice.
Pedigree: don't waste energy on an ugly boat. Pick a boat worth saving, one created by a respected naval architect and builder, but most of all, one that will draw your eye like a moth to a flame when she's at anchor. After all, you may have to live in this one day (see above).
Timing: if it takes 2-3x longer than anticipated, will the boat still meet your lifestyle needs?
Budget: if it costs 2-3x more doubloons than the worthless estimate that lured you into the shop, can you comfortably afford the overruns? One doesn't bring more to a casino than one can afford to lose.
Sanity: how's your mental health? Seriously, a project of this scale will push every emotional button. I sure didn't start out wanting to be the general contractor.
Exit Strategy: do the math...what is this boat realistically worth when completed? Hint - less than invested! Using a worst-case scenario, does it still represent a good value? But then again, this isn't about money, is it.
Don't BS a BS'er: are you seriously trying to tell me you can't find an equally great boat in this market that some other fool already spent his kids' inheritance restoring and now needs to sell at a fraction of that investment?
If you're still fixated on a 'project' like Republicans on the White House and expect to pay someone else to do it, here's the only way I would do this again. Some things I did the first time, some I didn't:

Hire a naval architect to scope the work and solicit multiple quotes
Identify the strengths and limitations of the yard - mutually agree how to fill the gaps
A low labor rate does not necessarily translate to lower cost if project management is abysmal
Consider retaining an independent Project Manager to be an intermediary
Agree to a defined goal and project plan with a critical path schedule, completion date, payment terms and reward/penalties for meeting/missing a commissioning date
Insist on 'fixed price' quotes based on thorough inspection, a firm build plan and shared risk; establish in advance how change orders will be calculated
Don't be lured into a 'project bid' only to be T&M' invoiced 'by the inch' - pay only for project completion (i.e. headliner complete, sole installed, etc.)
Insure the builder's crew has actual experience with this type of vessel and its intended use - an offfshore vessel needs the skills of craftsmen with personal offshore experience so that when judgement calls are required, they make the right decisions
Retain the option of selecting product from independent vendors if the builder's choice in sub's is poor; obviously this is a last resort before reverting to the exit strategy
Determine the sailplan and rigging changes first
Make the electrical and electronic decisions before carpentry starts
Don't allow the builder to demolish more than you care to replace
Consider the builder's location. Monthly inspection and decision-making trips, hotel rooms and meals, the need to eliminate and replace deck hardware to accommodate inland bridge clearances, relocation for painting, relocation for commissioning, etc. easily added $10k to my project.
Require weekly communication and progress reports as critical to a predictable outcome and good relationship
If you are expected to pay 'uplift' on electronics, mechanicals, etc., expect the builder to deliver product expertise, perform analysis and make informed recommendations
A builder that encourages you to visit and even help with labor makes for a pleasant relationship - just stay out of their way while the clock is ticking
Secure agreement that no other boats will come and go with workers being re-deployed if yours is behind schedule
References, references, references.....does the builder have a track record of quality, integrity and professional project management?
Consider a performance bond - you don't want to end up owning a boatyard or with a half-completed boat if the yard collapses
Have an escape strategy from an incompetent yard - know when to pull the plug and where to move the boat
Consider how warranty work will be handled. Once splashed, can the boat realistically return to the yard for service if the yard is too far away?

So would I use a boutique builder again? Maybe. After all, big yards are risky too and perhaps more adroit at nickle and diming. I'm not sure this project cost me any less and it certainly cost far more than they estimated; it could have been completed in half the time by any yard with more resources and better project management. That said, I've not yet regretted the quality or questioned the builder's integrity. And in the end, that matters more than price.

So perhaps as my wife assures me, "size doesn't matter".
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Old 04-04-2012, 23:40   #11
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Based on what you have listed alone, I would budget 50-60k while keeping in mind that things will inevitably be found in the process that will absolutely demand attention($$) and those that 'might as well' be done while you have the chance($$$).

Our 44' cutter was totaled due to an electrical fire causing almost entirely smoke damage, and if it had not been for the fact that this boat sails like no other, we would have taken the insurance money and invested in another boat. After a lot of estimates we were quoted 'no less than' 150k ( read 250k+) to get it back to a passable reflection of what it was.

We trucked it to our previously vacated house, parked it in the yard (bit of a shock to the neighborhood) 20 feet from the garage and set about refitting it almost 3 years ago. We are about to splash it (!!!) and have put just around 60k into it to date without any new rigging/running gear yet.

Mission impossible if we hadn't been able to buy it back from salvage for almost nothing, bring it to the house to do the work ourselves, and have the income to pay the household bills and have enough for the refit.

On the negative, haven't been on the water in three years, worked countless hours and invested heavily in something that will probably never show a return ( not that it will ever be for sale).

On the positive side, I know know every square inch of that beautiful boat, am confident of every detail and have heavily customized the vessel to my own whims. I've learned heaps ( thanks CF!) and spent some real quality time with my Dad in the process. Do it again?, if the hull was salvageable, free and had a place/ time to get it done then.... Maybe.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:59   #12
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Quote:
Originally Posted by MShea View Post
Pedigree: don't waste energy on an ugly boat. Pick a boat worth saving, one created by a respected naval architect and builder, but most of all, one that will draw your eye like a moth to a flame when she's at anchor.
Lots of good advice - for me the key to the entire project is the above - given that it will be more expensive than buying the same s/h boat in sailaway condition.........and that means you will own the boat for a longggg time (unless you are blessed with enough cash to make the refit costs a minor expense!).

An Exit Strategy (with a variety of scenarios fleshed out - before things go badly wrong) is IMO also essential - both the paperwork / legal / money side with the existing yard and the practice (WTF do you do next?!).

Also have to remember and accept that the yard / workers are in the deal to make money - not to do you a favour because it is a nice boat.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:18   #13
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Add up what you think it will.cost than multiply by 2.5
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:12   #14
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

I bought a hurricane damaged boat that the insurance company hard written off as totaled. Six month s later I was sailing.i concentrated on the critical systems ie.mast, engine and steering. Six years later I'm still not complete but have sailed tens of thousands of miles.the way to not end up with a lost dream is to get her in the water and go sailing.as soon as I had the bottom done, steering assessed and seacocks serviced she was on the water.i think unless you have unlimited funds and patience waiting for a bristol condition yacht is a recipe for neve
r leaving port.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:57   #15
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Re: Refit 45 foot monohull

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Gablio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiabbo View Post
... Go with high quality braided copper one gauge higher than standard.
Use properly fitted findings and solder each one carefully. Whip the ends with vinyl electric tape...
... If I may be permitted to speak for us and many others like us, we are excited for your campaign to get on the water and we are here to vicariously enjoy and help if we can.
Type 3 Stranded (not braided), tinned copper wire, with crimped terminations (not soldered), finished with adhesive-lined heat shrink (not tape).
For minimum wire sizing for differing circuits
See ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...r&imageuser=79

And ➥
http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...r&imageuser=79
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