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Old 07-05-2016, 22:03   #46
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Here's the extreme close up of that "mini step" where the upside down U bolt attaches. You can see it sits a bit proud. The bolt hole on the lower left I've picked away at to try to see what lies below; the one at the upper left still has the embedded bolt. The test hole is in the middle. I don't remember if someone had suggested it might be G10 there, but it seems likely there is something round there and I can still thread the bolts into the two on the right, which are the ones that sheared, which I think would hold better in G10 than in fiberglass and epoxy.
I think the whole block was probably made in a vacuum mold and then laminated into the keel when the mold for the hull was being laid. If that was the case it could still have a metal plate in it or being compressed in the original mold...making it denser... they might have deemed it strong enough to hold the bolts. the raised area for the panting rod would probably be there just to give the workers a location to put the pad eye...ie...showing them where the possible plate is and the relative alignment of the hole above, where the other end of the rod goes.
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Old 08-05-2016, 01:29   #47
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Good to see that you're "staying in the fight" on this project. Sorry that you haven't gotten it fixed as yet though. And yep, you're right about it being interesting to see all of the brains & brainpower involved in solving this one.

- I think it may have been mentioned already. But 99%+ of your boat was likely built with Polyester resin.
And the smell which you may be able to detect when you drill it, is due to a tiny fraction of it remaining in a semi-cured state (often for decades). It's the same smell which is very distinctive in new, freshly built, fiberglass boats.

- Buy, or borrow a Borescope, & look down into the holes to determine whether or not there's a metal plate in there. Or possibly a G10 one. And if it's metal, with a bit of expertise, it's possible to tell whether it's aluminum or stainless.
Also, while using said tool, it'd be worth measuring the thickness of the plate if possible.

- Ez-Outs aside. Try soaking the broken bolts with penetrating oil (Kroil), or a mix of Transmission Fluid (ATF) & Acetone, several times a day.
Then, gently, at a slow rate of speed (RPM's) drill the broken bits with a Left Handed drill bit.
As many times, it acts much like an Ez-Out, with the reverse threading & rotation of the bit being enough to break things free. And spin them out.


As a KISS fix, to create a new, solid mounting "pad", you could:
- Sand/grind off all of the gelcoat/coatings on the fiberglass around the mast step. Including the raised up area for the padeye. So that the whole surface is relatively flat.

- Get a big piece of G10 or Aluminum plate, 3/8"-1/2" thick, & cut it so that it covers most of the built in fiberglass pad that's integral to the mast step.

- Cut a hole in it big enough to allow the mast to fit through it, & still properly seat itself on the step.

- Bond, glass, & bolt said plate to the pad. Including bonding all of the fasteners in place, which will help to hold this plate in place.
And on the glassing bit. Make sure to allow space for proper bond line width, with each subsequent layer of securing reinforcement material (cloth).

- Before or after bonding said plate in place, tap it for bolts for the padeye, or a new tang.

- Attach tang/padeye, & you should be done.


Keep in mind too, that if you prefer, & this likely is a better option. When I mentioned fabricating a metal tang in the shape of an inverted "T". You can make such a tang out of Aluminum. As plenty of boats have Aluminum chainplates.
So that in addition to using bonded bolts to secure it. You can bond it in place, with epoxy, as well. And even glass it in place, along with that. Including overtop of it's fasteners.
Just make sure to draw some good diagrams of it's construction. So that later on, if you, or her next owner needs to do some work on this hardware & assembly, there are good notes & pics, describing it.

The only catch being, that if you're bonding Aluminum, you have to properly prepare it. Via acid etching, followed by alodyning it. But it's not a big deal. Nor is it anywhere near as hazardous as it sounds. And they make kits with all of the components & instructions which you need in order to do this.
Plus, they're easy to find online/download, & or (probably) watch on YouTube.

Also, any & all of the above techniques can be used in conjunction with my earlier posted suggestions.


BTW, based on the size of the metal fitting on the end of the Panting Rod. I'm highly doubting that it's a fitting which sees huge amounts of load. Otherwise, you'd have a true Tie Rod, made from proper rigging hardware.
Plus which, unlike a conventional rig, you don't have a dozen shrouds & stays trying to push the spar, down through your keel. Ergo, the vertical loads from the spar are tiny by comparison.

That said. Again, & not to be harsh: However, as I said before, it surely would help us to make better educated guesses on some of these loads (& proper fixes), if the spec's (dimensions & brands) of the various components were posted. As with them, it gets easier to take a stab at the loads which everything sees via a bit of math.
Ditto on my earlier request to see what the upper end of the rod connects to, & in what manner. Plus it'd also be helpful to know what rigging items are bolted to the deck in the vicinity of the mast's deck collar. Near where the upper end of the rod's connected.

Too, it's worth getting real world numbers on what sort of vertical pulling loads, various sizes of bonded in place bolts can handle. Likely both via online sources, & by contacting WEST System directly. As for certain, they'll have that information at hand, quite readily.
Including; bolt diameter, annulus size, substrata being bonded into, etc.


Anyway, keep at it, and... Good Luck!
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Old 08-05-2016, 05:31   #48
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

If you do cut things out and put in a new plate. Make sure of the hight and center location of the mounting pad. Mark the center with cross hair lines extended outside of the area being removed and measure the distance from the top of the mast step to the top of the pad.

if when all is don and you find that the distance betwixt the padeye and collar is too short. you can add more threads to the rod with a thread die. a tool to cut threads on a rod. I would guess a 5/16 x 18 thread measure the diameter of the rod or take the nut down to the hardware store to get the appropriate die. Or if it's low you can shim the padeye.
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:09   #49
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Small edit added to fix a 0330 writing glitch. Oops
The correction is below, placed directly above the original text, so that (hopefully) what's written makes a bit more sense. My apoligies. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Good to see that you're "staying in the fight" on this project. Sorry that you haven't gotten it fixed as yet though. And yep, you're right about it being interesting to see all of the brains & brainpower involved in solving this one.

- I think it may have been mentioned already. But 99%+ of your boat was likely built with Polyester resin.
And the smell which you may be able to detect when you drill it, is due to a tiny fraction of it remaining in a semi-cured state (often for decades). It's the same smell which is very distinctive in new, freshly built, fiberglass boats.

- Buy, or borrow a Borescope, & look down into the holes to determine whether or not there's a metal plate in there. Or possibly a G10 one. And if it's metal, with a bit of expertise, it's possible to tell whether it's aluminum or stainless.
Also, while using said tool, it'd be worth measuring the thickness of the plate if possible.

- Ez-Outs aside. Try soaking the broken bolts with penetrating oil (Kroil), or a mix of Transmission Fluid (ATF) & Acetone, several times a day.
Then, gently, at a slow rate of speed (RPM's) drill the broken bits with a Left Handed drill bit.
As many times, it acts much like an Ez-Out, with the reverse threading & rotation of the bit being enough to break things free. And spin them out.


As a KISS fix, to create a new, solid mounting "pad", you could:
- Sand/grind off all of the gelcoat/coatings on the fiberglass around the mast step. Including the raised up area for the padeye. So that the whole surface is relatively flat.

- Get a big piece of G10 or Aluminum plate, 3/8"-1/2" thick, & cut it so that it covers most of the built in fiberglass pad that's integral to the mast step.

- Cut a hole in it big enough to allow the mast to fit through it, & still properly seat itself on the step.

- Bond, glass, & bolt said plate to the pad. Including bonding all of the fasteners in place, which will help to hold this plate in place.
And on the glassing bit. Make sure to allow space for proper bond line width, with each subsequent layer of securing reinforcement material (cloth).

- Before or after bonding said plate in place, tap it for bolts for the padeye, or a new tang.

- Attach tang/padeye, & you should be done.


I had a small goof in my writing below, thanks to it being the wee hours when I was composing it.
Specifically, where I say "this likely is a better option". My meaning is that the below described version is a better methodology for attaching a newly fabricated tang. Versus the one which I desribe in my post on pg.1 of this thread.
NOT that going with such a tang is necessarily the best option (or plan). Simply, that if you do decide to build & mount one, that it makes more sense to use a metal which is easier to both bond/bond to, & to machine, than stainless is.

Keep in mind too, that if you prefer, & this likely is a better option. When I mentioned fabricating a metal tang in the shape of an inverted "T". You can make such a tang out of Aluminum. As plenty of boats have Aluminum chainplates.
So that in addition to using bonded bolts to secure it. You can bond it in place, with epoxy, as well. And even glass it in place, along with that. Including overtop of it's fasteners.
Just make sure to draw some good diagrams of it's construction. So that later on, if you, or her next owner needs to do some work on this hardware & assembly, there are good notes & pics, describing it.

The only catch being, that if you're bonding Aluminum, you have to properly prepare it. Via acid etching, followed by alodyning it. But it's not a big deal. Nor is it anywhere near as hazardous as it sounds. And they make kits with all of the components & instructions which you need in order to do this.
Plus, they're easy to find online/download, & or (probably) watch on YouTube.

Also, any & all of the above techniques can be used in conjunction with my earlier posted suggestions.


BTW, based on the size of the metal fitting on the end of the Panting Rod. I'm highly doubting that it's a fitting which sees huge amounts of load. Otherwise, you'd have a true Tie Rod, made from proper rigging hardware.
Plus which, unlike a conventional rig, you don't have a dozen shrouds & stays trying to push the spar, down through your keel. Ergo, the vertical loads from the spar are tiny by comparison.

That said. Again, & not to be harsh: However, as I said before, it surely would help us to make better educated guesses on some of these loads (& proper fixes), if the spec's (dimensions & brands) of the various components were posted. As with them, it gets easier to take a stab at the loads which everything sees via a bit of math.
Ditto on my earlier request to see what the upper end of the rod connects to, & in what manner. Plus it'd also be helpful to know what rigging items are bolted to the deck in the vicinity of the mast's deck collar. Near where the upper end of the rod's connected.

Too, it's worth getting real world numbers on what sort of vertical pulling loads, various sizes of bonded in place bolts can handle. Likely both via online sources, & by contacting WEST System directly. As for certain, they'll have that information at hand, quite readily.
Including; bolt diameter, annulus size, substrata being bonded into, etc.


Anyway, keep at it, and... Good Luck!
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:49   #50
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post

Lance, thanks for all the great suggestions and support! Peter, I'll look into Easy Out drills. I had not heard of them (tho they may have been suggested and I've forgotten).
gam,

A word about easy outs... In case you were going to fly straight ahead without coming back here first...

In this situation, if you've not used them before, your success rate is going to be frustratingly low.... Whoever named them "easy outs" should be shot... They should be named...

"Holy crap, I've got a broken bolt in a hole with a small margin of success if I do it correctly tool"

You've sheared off a 1/4-20 SS bolt at the head = pretty good torque ... Fasteners that break off due to being corroded in place pose the hardest variation of tool use... UNLESS of course the head was broken off first, and NOT by being unscrewed... (we never did hear what started the whole process???)

The hardest parts of this will be:
1-Drilling a hole in the exact center of a 1/4" STAINLESS fastener
2-NOT breaking the tool or the drilling bit in the hole

If you are going to "easy out" the broken fastener, we'll go through the tips and tricks of the process... I as well as others here have done it well beyond hundreds of times...
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Old 08-05-2016, 07:11   #51
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Honestly...

What I personally would do here is fairly simple, no glasswork, and will get you back out right away.... Easy peasy...

Find or make a 1/4" aluminum disk the same size as your raised pad/plate. (I say Al because it's easy to work with, and you don't seem to have a moisture problem there from the looks of things... Better would be SS)

Drill (4) 5/16" clearance holes and countersink for flathead fasteners. One in the center where you have your test hole, and the 3 remaining perimeter holes. (this is if you "don't" get the broken fastener out, 4 perimeter holes if you do) Drill and tap your glass pad for 5/16" and screw down the plate...

Place your rod pad on the aluminum plate rotated 45 degrees, mark, drill and tap through the aluminum plate and glass below (1/4 is fine)... Now you've got 8 fasteners holding your rod pad in place (to the step)... It's not going to go anywhere...
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