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Old 06-05-2016, 17:37   #31
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Hi, this compression rod is it standard Freedom? I don't have anything like it on mine. Maybe it's not nessacary? Haven't heard of it before.
Cheers Dale.

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Old 07-05-2016, 06:38   #32
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
OK. I have a lot to look into this weekend. This is great input. My usual tendency is to take the biggest hammer and chisel...
I think we ALL like to do this from time to time!
To clarify - two of the bolts look sheared at 1", one bolt is sheared at the head that I can't get out, the fourth one took a lot of effort to get loose, but I've thrown it away. Oh one wonders the length of the tossed bolt... I really do... Can't remember what it looked like, but all three of the holes that I can poke down into stop at 1 inch into something that feels solid. The test hole in the middle went down 1.3 inches and came up with nothing but fiberglass. Even smelled like fiberglass, though I think the first half inch is G10 (which is a just a solid fiberglass board, right?)

It is a Freedom with an unstayed mast, built in 1998, and I'm certain the step was built original at the factory. They were solidly built, so maybe it was overkill at the time because the connections on the panting rod look a little twinky. (giggles) If there had been big forces, I would think over time this would have stressed it and it didn't seem snug when I removed it. On the other hand, this boat was lightly sailed over the years. Since I've been picking up the paces a bit, there have been things that have needed enforcing or have broken. I put the aluminum-casted gooseneck in both those categories and am working with a friend to machine a new one (another story for another time)

I'll try to drill into those holes where the bolts were. I know I can go another .33" more. They might just spin if I can't get a grip on anything but we'll see. I can feel down in there a bit, but just can't see anything so will try to figure out if I am hitting metal or not. Trust me. I am taking this slowly. It's so helpful that you all are taking this in baby steps with me, too. Stay tuned...
Slow is good! Let's do it right...

Oh, and the bolts are indeed .25". Even the one you threw away??? (i couldn't help myself)
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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Yeah, so did I Except I wonder if that metal piece might be in two pieces just below the bolt holes on either side?

Surely possible, but the dimensions of 2 plates would make very little sense, and a bigger pain to lay up...


Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Hi, this compression rod is it standard Freedom? I don't have anything like it on mine. Maybe it's not nessacary? Haven't heard of it before.
Cheers Dale.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Panting rod... and now we're all curious... Gamayun's step sure looks factory for it...
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:08   #33
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Hey Gamayun, ignore my post, I miss interpreted not only your description but the picture, not quite sure how I did that...lol.
Cheers Dale.

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Old 07-05-2016, 07:26   #34
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Yes G10 is a fiberglass composite. It's laid up with Epoxi and compressed and baked. Unlike polyester...which most GRP boats are made of....epoxi is not solvent base, hence non-porous. It's some pretty strong stuff. That's why barrier coats are Epoxi and you shouldn't thin them with solvents...of any kind! As when the solvent evaporates it leaves little holes where the solvent molecules were, making it porous. altho slightly. "Partly" why you get blisters below the water line. Thats a little off topic, just a little knowledge to add to the data base ;-)

So far it sounds as tho you may not find a metal plate. But for myself I would have to know for sure, on my own boat. As mentioned by MDR the base does look factory, hence the panting rod is design. The forces caused by the main sheet and halyards run to the deck would not be as much as shrouds would put on the panting rod, hence maybe why its only threaded into G10. As far as two plates? I would think unlikely, more labor...manufactures think in half cents.

You say it didn't seem tight previously. It shouldn't have a lot of tension on it with no sails up, but it should be snug. If it were loose with no sails then when the deck did flex the forces on it would be multiplied greatly and rip things loose, even crack the deck at the collar, where the upper end connects.

Thank you for keepin' us informed on your progress. We can all learn something here, in this case the design construction of the freedom 38. I love to learn and I've learned many things on this forum and not just about boats and cruising. Hell I've even learned a few thing 'bout my own character flaws, priceless altho painful ;-) So, Thanks to all.

Peace Luv & Happiness
Lance
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:43   #35
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

How can you tell the difference between G-10 and well laid fiberglass without labratory testing ?

I am doubtfull that there is any G-10 in this mast stepp.

Cheers,
JM.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:31   #36
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

hhmmm that is a good question. for me It would be an educated guess. the glass would be tighter and the color would be different than polyester. but just looking at filings it would be nest to impossible. by looking at a cross section you could see a difference in the laminates. there, still a guess. G10 hasn't been around all that long, so if it was from back in the '70's I'd say no G10. When I used to work on guided missile radar domes we did use epoxy laminates that were vacuum bagged to be installed for mounting reinforcements. It wasn't called G10 then, But that process is where it came from. Ours would come out yellow, the color of the epoxy. some epoxy's are green and other colors. It all depends on the manufacturer of the epoxy.

deduction through investigation and experience, would still be a guess. I can't see Gamayuns materials, so I can't say what she has, as I haven't. I have pushed for further investigation tho. with her findings I can still only "suggest" an educated guess and a viable solution/repair. She will gain experience and grow from there. I am impressed with her ability so far and am sure she will resolve her situation and only hope she will share her knowledge and experience with the rest of us.

Hope this helps
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Old 07-05-2016, 11:25   #37
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

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Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
How can you tell the difference between G-10 and well laid fiberglass without labratory testing ?....
Smell the freshly drilled shavings. Epoxy and polyester have distinctly different odors.
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Old 07-05-2016, 17:27   #38
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Sorry if this has been suggested - I didn't see it mentioned - but when I was on my submarine a lifetime ago and we had something like this happen (sheared bolt), we'd drill a hole in it and use an Easy Out. We had a huge set of them for tiny bolts thru huge honkin' guys.

Looks like Lowes carries them


Basically a tapered reverse threaded bolt - the more you turn counter clockwise, the tighter it gets. If the bolts aren't completely fused, it would get them out.

Good luck in the project!


-Peter
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Old 07-05-2016, 19:20   #39
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

yah, polyester has a lot sharper smell.
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Old 07-05-2016, 20:51   #40
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
How can you tell the difference between G-10 and well laid fiberglass without labratory testing ?

I am doubtfull that there is any G-10 in this mast stepp.

Cheers,
JM.
There's a round base (if you will) that sits higher than the floor of the step where the bolts went through. Below is a wide angle picture of the whole floor in the V berth where my mast is located. I'll get a close up of the side view to show what I think is a circle-cut piece of G10 that is glassed in and matches the diameter of the U bolt thingee (oh, what is that called again?!)

Lance, thanks for all the great suggestions and support! Peter, I'll look into Easy Out drills. I had not heard of them (tho they may have been suggested and I've forgotten). Dale, I didn't see your message till now, but I posted the question on the Freedom forum to see if this had been an after-factory repair job for some reason. Seems maybe not now, but if there are any helpful ideas from that group, I'll add them to this discussion.

I'm so appreciative of everyone's thoughts. I love this process of discovery! I actually learned a number of other things today, though had meant to get some real work-work done...argh. Boats!

I should be ready to tackle the mast on Wednesday, after I clear out some meetings and work projects. Getting close.
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Old 07-05-2016, 20:58   #41
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

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Smell the freshly drilled shavings. Epoxy and polyester have distinctly different odors.
Yes, I had actually done this and was a little embarrassed to report my findings It was a sharper smell at the lower part of the test drill and a little more "dense" at the upper part. I would have thought, too, that epoxy would smell stronger than polyester, but since both G10 and the fiberglass have epoxy in them, the only difference should be that fiberglass will be a little more "sandy" in texture. Am I getting close?

Wait. Where would I find a polyester layer? It's not when I'm about to drill through the boat, is it?
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Old 07-05-2016, 21:12   #42
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Your fiberglass will have polyester resin, not epoxy. Its odor is very easily identifiable.
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Old 07-05-2016, 21:14   #43
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

Here's the extreme close up of that "mini step" where the upside down U bolt attaches. You can see it sits a bit proud. The bolt hole on the lower left I've picked away at to try to see what lies below; the one at the upper left still has the embedded bolt. The test hole is in the middle. I don't remember if someone had suggested it might be G10 there, but it seems likely there is something round there and I can still thread the bolts into the two on the right, which are the ones that sheared, which I think would hold better in G10 than in fiberglass and epoxy.
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Old 07-05-2016, 21:21   #44
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

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Your fiberglass will have polyester resin, not epoxy. Its odor is very easily identifiable.
Then I was starting to drill into the bottom of the boat
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Old 07-05-2016, 21:42   #45
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Re: Rebedding formerly glassed bolts - Help !

fiberglass is really not the proper term used most often. It's glass reinforced plastic GRP. the plastic is made from a mixture of chemicals, usually in two parts...ie... resin and hardener. the glass is the there to hold it together...like rebar or wire mesh in concrete. there are a myriad of different plastics. most boats are made with polyester plastic. Epoxy is another type of plastic. if you get down to the base chemicals and additives epoxies come in many different plastics. polyester is cheaper than the epoxy plastics and is more flexible and stronger than polyester. But pollster is plenty good enough for its use in constructing hulls.

as you say the smell was pretty strong and sharp the whole way. then stay on the trac you've set. I think you'll find the solution you need.

Wow, all the experience you're getting on this project will enable you to tackle many other problems, on yer own, down the road. Makes ya feel good ay?
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