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Old 07-03-2017, 13:38   #31
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

OK Minaret, how did you get your 3M 8" Soft Disc Pad onto a DA, lol. It has 5/8-11 interior threads!

It will probably fit on my Hitachi variable grinder but that's not orbital, FWIW.
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Old 07-03-2017, 13:54   #32
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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OK Minaret, how did you get your 3M 8" Soft Disc Pad onto a DA, lol. It has 5/8-11 interior threads!

It will probably fit on my Hitachi variable grinder but that's not orbital, FWIW.

If you put an 8" disc on a 5" DA motor you will fry the motor in short order. What you want for that is pneumatic and generally termed a Mud Hog (it's a geared orbital sander).



https://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Ran.../dp/B0002SRNOQ


Needs a big compressor with loads of CFM. If you get one always set it down flat and treat it like the metal disc base is made of butter, because it is. It will bend on you in a heartbeat, unless you get a $400 model. Buy the cheapie and be careful. JMHO.
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Old 14-03-2017, 08:34   #33
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Concerning gelcoat over epoxy. What do you do if you have epoxy repairs to your deck?

I have to repair my windless pad that has a crack in the glass. I really want to use epoxy for a strong repair.

Is there a product that I can fair over the repair and then coat with gel? Or do just need to make the repair in poly and go from there?

thanks again,
Jim
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Old 14-03-2017, 09:43   #34
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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Concerning gelcoat over epoxy. What do you do if you have epoxy repairs to your deck?

I have to repair my windless pad that has a crack in the glass. I really want to use epoxy for a strong repair.

Is there a product that I can fair over the repair and then coat with gel? Or do just need to make the repair in poly and go from there?

thanks again,
Jim



Tie coat with 545.
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Old 14-03-2017, 10:12   #35
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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Tie coat with 545.
GREAT!
THANKS
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Old 14-03-2017, 10:27   #36
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

It really is so much faster, easier, and cheaper to do it all in poly though.
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Old 14-03-2017, 19:38   #37
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

That's a good question, Jhulmer, and I'm about a year behind Suijin with the deck gelcoat.

I have two holes through my deck where the old water tank fill fittings were. Before I realized the incompatibility between epoxy and polyester, I filled other holes with epoxy/West 404.

So now, comes the issue of two holes., about 2" dia. and balsa core deck. I dug out about 1" of core round the hole, creating a "hole" that is about 4" dia (core to core).

Normally, I dig out the core a ways back from the edge of the hole, pour in some epoxy/404, maybe layer or two of 1208, then topping off with more epoxy/404.

The only reason I used epoxy was fear of the patch falling out. With a through-deck holed keyed into the core, I think there might not be an issue with the patch falling out (or?).

If I do this with Polyester (I prefer working with poly anyway) to make it compatible with gelcoat, what do I use?

isophthalic, orthophthalic , or vinylester resin?

What filler?

Is it better to cut mat or 1208 to fit the 4" diameter (core to core) hole and layer it in with polyester resin or just pour in some poly mixed with some filler (milled fiber?)

The hole locations are amidship, just fwd of the forward lowers at the edge of the deck.

Boat is a pearson 367

Thanks y'all.
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Old 14-03-2017, 19:57   #38
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

I know nothing about them except that they exist, but what about using epoxy gelcoat to cover things like deck repairs?
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Old 17-03-2017, 07:31   #39
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Finally underway. Boat is in the shed and shedding hardware...

On the trailer and pushed in. It was ultimately cheaper to rent space in the shed than to build a shelter. If the yard ends up helping me (which basically goes without saying, particularly as I just injured my posterior cruciate ligament although not badly) the rent gets cut in half.



Tight fit!



Pulling the headliner down...



Labelling EVERYTHING. There must be 50 teak trim pieces for the headliner...



Teak grab rails coming off...and likely being replaced with stainless. Dan the metal fabricator here does gorgeous work at reasonable rates. I don't mind brightwork in moderation but the handrails are a nightmare. Now is the time to replace them. And there is the color of the original gelcoat. Not quite Island/Mustard Packet yellow, but definitely a cream color:



The big conundrum. I have a dorade vent forward of the mast, in the head, that prevents me from stowing my RIB inflated on the foredeck, so I'm contemplating moving it back even with or behind the mast and putting a low profile vent in it's place. However, I'd really like the deck to be flush. Here is the construction of the deck at the other dorade. Cutting it out and reglassing it flush would be a huge undertaking. Coachroof is 2" thick. Is it worth it? I dunno. Again, now is the time to do it!



EVERYTHING on the deck is bedded in 5200, which is a blessing and a curse. After 31 years, the only leaks have been at the chainplates, where the plates themselves separated from the caulk due to flexing, and experienced enough corrosion to merit replacement. However, there is no rot in the deck as the caulking held fast to the deck. 5200 has such monstrous adhesive properties that every other fitting is sound. Another testament to it's strength is that it takes a heavy impact driver to break free 1/4" bolts from the caulk and walk them out. Amazing. I have half a mind to put everything back with 5200 and let the next owner worry about it in another 30 years.

The real bear is the traveller. The mounting plates are about 6" square, and getting the 5200 to give it up over that surface area is challenging. The task is a matter of weighing the time and effort to get it off non-destructively against the time and effort of ripping it off and repairing the gelcoat, which is getting redone anyway. Have pounded a stiff scraper in as far as possible, then sprayed with Da Bond and sealed in plastic to let it do it's work. Fein tool is up next after another Da Bond treatment.

One chain plate, with the surface rust polished off, showing the pitting. My plates were not polished at all. New plates will be 316, polished and then passivated.



Have gone at the gelcoat cracks in a few places in an exploratory fashion with the grinder and am surprised that all so far seem to only be in the gelcoat. Surprising. But they all appeared after one hard winter uncovered, with ice on the deck. Maybe that freezing/refreezing of thick gelcoat was the culprit.

Two questions about looming tasks.

I'm going to end up with a couple of dozen 1/4" bolt holes in the deck that need to be filled. Plan was mat patch underneath, stuff mat and resin in the hole, then patch and fair on top. I see you guys have been talking about this in the last few posts. I'm listening.

The second is what to rebed everything with. The primary qualities of a good bedding compound are adhesion, flexibility, and longevity. 5200 is remarkable in that department. Grey butyl tape, probably right up there, but the black butyl rubber that comes in rolls is even stickier...at the expense of being messier and more difficult to work with. Hmmmm, what to do....
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Old 17-03-2017, 08:29   #40
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Labelling EVERYTHING. There must be 50 teak trim pieces for the headliner...
Don't forget to label the fasteners, including which came from what corner on a piece of hardware if they're uneven lengths.

Teak grab rails coming off...and likely being replaced with stainless. Dan the metal fabricator here does gorgeous work at reasonable rates. I don't mind brightwork in moderation but the handrails are a nightmare. Now is the time to replace them. And there is the color of the original gelcoat. Not quite Island/Mustard Packet yellow, but definitely a cream color:
Good call on the metal handrails. Wish they were the OEM norm on boats. As to deck colors, lighter's better

The big conundrum. I have a dorade vent forward of the mast, in the head, that prevents me from stowing my RIB inflated on the foredeck, so I'm contemplating moving it back even with or behind the mast and putting a low profile vent in it's place. However, I'd really like the deck to be flush. Here is the construction of the deck at the other dorade. Cutting it out and reglassing it flush would be a huge undertaking. Coachroof is 2" thick. Is it worth it? I dunno. Again, now is the time to do it!
Might there be room for a recessed (below deck) box with a drain line? Or, fab a modular system with a base plate built into the deck which will accept; a standard dorade box, a low profile vent on a plate, a low profile or flush deck hatch.

EVERYTHING on the deck is bedded in 5200, which is a blessing and a curse. After 31 years, the only leaks have been at the chainplates, where the plates themselves separated from the caulk due to flexing, and experienced enough corrosion to merit replacement. However, there is no rot in the deck as the caulking held fast to the deck. 5200 has such monstrous adhesive properties that every other fitting is sound. Another testament to it's strength is that it takes a heavy impact driver to break free 1/4" bolts from the caulk and walk them out. Amazing. I have half a mind to put everything back with 5200 and let the next owner worry about it in another 30 years.

The real bear is the traveller. The mounting plates are about 6" square, and getting the 5200 to give it up over that surface area is challenging. The task is a matter of weighing the time and effort to get it off non-destructively against the time and effort of ripping it off and repairing the gelcoat, which is getting redone anyway. Have pounded a stiff scraper in as far as possible, then sprayed with Da Bond and sealed in plastic to let it do it's work. Fein tool is up next after another Da Bond treatment.
My toolbox filet knife earns it's keep in removing this stuff, as you can slip it's flexible, oh so sharp blade, underneath all kinds of things. Including quite a lot of curves. And for $12 it's kinda' disposable, though it has yet to break.
Piano wire type garottes work well too. Sometimes using twisted, multi-strand wire instead of monofilament wire.

Have gone at the gelcoat cracks in a few places in an exploratory fashion with the grinder and am surprised that all so far seem to only be in the gelcoat. Surprising. But they all appeared after one hard winter uncovered, with ice on the deck. Maybe that freezing/refreezing of thick gelcoat was the culprit.
A Dremel might help you to check crack depths without removing so much surface area of gelcoat.

Two questions about looming tasks.

I'm going to end up with a couple of dozen 1/4" bolt holes in the deck that need to be filled. Plan was mat patch underneath, stuff mat and resin in the hole, then patch and fair on top. I see you guys have been talking about this in the last few posts. I'm listening.
Patch underneath, & fill with epoxy/milled fiber bog on top (or poly resin bog?), unless a full depth structural rebuild's needed.

The second is what to rebed everything with. The primary qualities of a good bedding compound are adhesion, flexibility, and longevity. 5200 is remarkable in that department. Grey butyl tape, probably right up there, but the black butyl rubber that comes in rolls is even stickier...at the expense of being messier and more difficult to work with. Hmmmm, what to do....
If it ain't coming up for another quarter century, & the current system worked splendidly... why reinvent it?
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Old 17-03-2017, 09:01   #41
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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If it ain't coming up for another quarter century, & the current system worked splendidly... why reinvent it?


IMHE 5200 hates heat. If possible heat the part with a torch (for parts with no finish) just until spit sizzles, it'll pop right off. For more finished metal parts, more careful heating with a heat gun helps. Get it hot, and it'll come off. And the aforementioned piano wire/clay cutter can also be heated in some cases. Satan's glue melts/softens, you have to kill it with fire!
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Old 17-03-2017, 09:24   #42
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Finally underway. Boat is in the shed and shedding hardware...

On the trailer and pushed in. It was ultimately cheaper to rent space in the shed than to build a shelter. If the yard ends up helping me (which basically goes without saying, particularly as I just injured my posterior cruciate ligament although not badly) the rent gets cut in half.



Tight fit!



Pulling the headliner down...



Labelling EVERYTHING. There must be 50 teak trim pieces for the headliner...



Teak grab rails coming off...and likely being replaced with stainless. Dan the metal fabricator here does gorgeous work at reasonable rates. I don't mind brightwork in moderation but the handrails are a nightmare. Now is the time to replace them. And there is the color of the original gelcoat. Not quite Island/Mustard Packet yellow, but definitely a cream color:



The big conundrum. I have a dorade vent forward of the mast, in the head, that prevents me from stowing my RIB inflated on the foredeck, so I'm contemplating moving it back even with or behind the mast and putting a low profile vent in it's place. However, I'd really like the deck to be flush. Here is the construction of the deck at the other dorade. Cutting it out and reglassing it flush would be a huge undertaking. Coachroof is 2" thick. Is it worth it? I dunno. Again, now is the time to do it!



EVERYTHING on the deck is bedded in 5200, which is a blessing and a curse. After 31 years, the only leaks have been at the chainplates, where the plates themselves separated from the caulk due to flexing, and experienced enough corrosion to merit replacement. However, there is no rot in the deck as the caulking held fast to the deck. 5200 has such monstrous adhesive properties that every other fitting is sound. Another testament to it's strength is that it takes a heavy impact driver to break free 1/4" bolts from the caulk and walk them out. Amazing. I have half a mind to put everything back with 5200 and let the next owner worry about it in another 30 years.

The real bear is the traveller. The mounting plates are about 6" square, and getting the 5200 to give it up over that surface area is challenging. The task is a matter of weighing the time and effort to get it off non-destructively against the time and effort of ripping it off and repairing the gelcoat, which is getting redone anyway. Have pounded a stiff scraper in as far as possible, then sprayed with Da Bond and sealed in plastic to let it do it's work. Fein tool is up next after another Da Bond treatment.

One chain plate, with the surface rust polished off, showing the pitting. My plates were not polished at all. New plates will be 316, polished and then passivated.



Have gone at the gelcoat cracks in a few places in an exploratory fashion with the grinder and am surprised that all so far seem to only be in the gelcoat. Surprising. But they all appeared after one hard winter uncovered, with ice on the deck. Maybe that freezing/refreezing of thick gelcoat was the culprit.

Two questions about looming tasks.

I'm going to end up with a couple of dozen 1/4" bolt holes in the deck that need to be filled. Plan was mat patch underneath, stuff mat and resin in the hole, then patch and fair on top. I see you guys have been talking about this in the last few posts. I'm listening.

The second is what to rebed everything with. The primary qualities of a good bedding compound are adhesion, flexibility, and longevity. 5200 is remarkable in that department. Grey butyl tape, probably right up there, but the black butyl rubber that comes in rolls is even stickier...at the expense of being messier and more difficult to work with. Hmmmm, what to do....
3M5200 has no use on boats except for the hull/deck joint. Fittings on deck should be bedded with either buytl tape or sikaflex ( if you arein a pinch) below the waterline sikaflex or ( again in a pinch 4200) but NEVER 5200.
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Old 17-03-2017, 12:19   #43
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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3M5200 has no use on boats except for the hull/deck joint. Fittings on deck should be bedded with either buytl tape or sikaflex ( if you arein a pinch) below the waterline sikaflex or ( again in a pinch 4200) but NEVER 5200.


You're spouting dogma, and it is Satan's glue as Minaret says. And I'm very familiar with it after digging out 9 portlights bedded entirely in it in my 2" thick coachroof sides a few years ago. They were the old painted aluminum framed kind and it took me about three hours apiece to extract them. But after 28 years there was NO leakage, at all, except a 1" spot that was application error during construction. I don't know any other caulking/sealant that could boast that. It literally outlasted the fixtures themselves, which is incredible, and where it was protected from UV looked like it had been installed yesterday.

Yes it sucks when taking things apart, but it's amazing stuff. That surface adhesion pretty well guarantees monumental service life.
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Old 17-03-2017, 12:24   #44
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

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IMHE 5200 hates heat. If possible heat the part with a torch (for parts with no finish) just until spit sizzles, it'll pop right off. For more finished metal parts, more careful heating with a heat gun helps. Get it hot, and it'll come off. And the aforementioned piano wire/clay cutter can also be heated in some cases. Satan's glue melts/softens, you have to kill it with fire!


Heat AND pressure is the best in my experience. If you can easily rig a jig with heavy clamps and turn the screws as you heat, really helps when trying to protect parts.

The da bond is doing diddly on the dodger feet. Can't get to the middle.

**pulls out the torch**
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Old 18-03-2017, 13:35   #45
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Made the final assault on the traveller this morning. Decided to stop pussyfooting around and grabbed the jack out of my truck. A little bit of pressure, put the heat gun on it, and a minute later...POP, lol.



Two more repetitions for the center and the other side, and victory was at hand.




Random tool praise: I have long felt that this tool is just about the most versatile when doing a refit. I keep it in my back pocket and use it constantly. In fact when I hear a friend is about to start a refit I go out and buy them ones of these. Most are like "WTF?" when I give it to them, and a week into their job they are gushing "OMG this thing is indispensable."



Now I need to figure out how to get to the the handrail bolts over the shower stall, which is a one-piece fiberglass "booth". I think a 10" deck plate is in store for the shower's ceiling...
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